Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Ghosts Can’t Hurt You
Do you believe in ghosts? In this episode, Michelle Tea and poet Melissa Lozada Oliva discuss praying to rock-and-roll gods, seeing spirits, and the mystical art of writing poetry. Then, Rhiannon Morsch shares a spell for inviting your perfect love match into your life.
Michelle Tea: Hello and welcome to Your Magic! I’m Michelle Tea, and today I’m talking to writer Melissa Lozada-Oliva, a former National Poetry Slam champ and author of the book Peluda and the brand new Dreaming of You: A Novel in Verse, which is blowing up right now. We’ll discuss prayer and ritual and ghosts and more. Then we hear from Intuitive Teacher and Vedic Astrologer Rhiannon Morsch, who shares a love spell with a really good track record.
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And if you want a little sneak peek, here’s a preview of this month’s new moon reading for Scorpios:
Scorpio, happy moon cycle! I have tarostrology for you that illustrates and helps you through your own moon cycle. We all get one new moon a year. I guess sometimes we get two, don’t we, when something weird happens but this is your moon cycle, Scorpio, it begins with the new moon on the 5th. And what's really great is that the card I picked for you from the Alchemical tarot for that day is the Six of Vessels, which, you know, I work a lot with the Crowley deck. It's the Six of Cups in the Crowley deck, and it's represented astrologically by Sun in Scorpio. So this is a really powerful day for Scorpios, which we already knew. But I mean, the tarot is really doubling down with that. I see that this is a day for you on the fifth to really nurture your personal relationships. OK, let personal relationships take center stage. Purge those relationships that are toxic. Okay, for those of you who are dealing with toxic relationships, the new Moon in Scorpio is like your best friend to deal with something like that. And then also the relationships that love and support you like show a lot of support for that. Show a lot of gratitude for that, you know, both to the universe, to yourself, for, you know, knowing how to bring those, those people into your life and of course, to the people that are supporting you. OK, but it gets deeper and you're not surprised about that, are you? Because you're a Scorpio and you guys always get deeper. You know this, this cycle of nurturing personal relationships…
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[Music]
Michelle Tea: I think the first prayer I ever learned was that ‘Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep one,’ bringer of nightmares. The one that introduces to kids the notion that, yeah, you totally might not make it through the night. As unlikely as it is for a five year old to have a heart attack or a brain aneurysm, or whatever other assorted misfortunes can befall a slumbering child. I guess I wanted the Lord to take my soul, but honestly, it seemed like nobody else was interested in it, so okay. Hot on the heels of that creepy number was The Lord's Prayer, whose point seemed to be to let God know we were down here slavering over him, and also like help us be good so that he keeps liking us. The whole thing seems a little ass-kissy. The rebellious Catholic school girl in me — never far from the surface, honestly — really rears up when I’m in a 12-step meeting, feeling all gooey and kumbaya loving my neighbors, holding hands and getting ready to pray and then someone busts that old number out. Even worse, the person kicking off the prayer usually does so with a little call-and-response flair, asking the crowd, ‘Who’s father?’ Our father, the group dutifully drones. The thing I find truly groovy about the 12-step path is the real freedom everyone has to find and stick with their own spiritual practice, that ‘god of your own understanding,’ which gets totally ruined when someone trots out the ‘Our Father’ with its patriarchal, Christian origin. “I don’t pray to men,” I like to say snidely in such situations, even though I sometimes do like to make offerings to masc deities like Pan and Dionysus and Mercury and Satan.
But, all snideness aside, it was 12 step culture that brought prayer back to me - prayer and witchcraft, because, as we discuss in this episode, spells and prayers are really the same thing. They’re intentions, and nobody, no matter how insistent they may be, really knows who, if anyone, is receiving all these little wishes coming from planet Earth. Is it a bearded white man in the sky? A raven-haired crone in the underworld? Our computer-programmer overlords, our higher selves, absolutely no one? Maybe we are just synching up with that beneficent life force so many cultures have recognized. Nobody knows. But what I do know, as many prayer-sayers and spell-casters of various traditions also know, is that by any other name, these intentions work. It was through prayer that I got through the cravings and bewilderment of my early sobriety, prayer that eased my intense anxiety then, prayer that even today helps me work with my money and scarcity issues. Being pushed to locate that ‘god of my understanding’ brought me back to the whimsical pantheon I dabbled with when I was younger, a mish-mash of European deities mixed with dead punks like Divine and Jean Genet and living icons of weirdness like PeeWee Herman and Elvira. I declared my higher power to be Stevie Nicks, and it is, but I am a promiscuous acolyte. I have a lot of devotion in my heart, a lot of prayer in me, so many things to be thankful for and I want even more. And so I pray, in my shower, at my altar, in bed at night, sometimes a litany of want and sometimes a simple thank you. Maybe it’s a spell, maybe it’s witchcraft, maybe it’s no different than the nuns from my Catholic school, just a tiny human making a request of the big unknown.
Now, let’s get to Melissa.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Melissa Lozada-Oliva, thank you so much for being on Your Magic.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Thank you so much for having me on Your Magic.
Michelle Tea: I'm so excited about your book, Dreaming of You. I'm excited to talk to you about being a fan, which might not seem like it has any place on a mystical podcast. But I am a wild fan and I've always felt like there's a spiritual dimension to it.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I think so, too. I mean, I think... There's like a worshiping aspect to it, you know? I keep saying about this one time that someone told me, if you don't introduce your children to God, they find it in a band or a person. And I feel like, you know, when you're a fan, you're kind of just like giving in to having gods and mythical figures to worship. And I think we all need to have like an altar. I don't know.
Michelle Tea: I think that that's really true. Were you introduced to God at a young age and then became a fan anyway?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I was, yeah, I was raised like very Catholic, and I was like, really into Jesus. And I was just like, I was like, I like, loved praying every night. And then, you know, I got — my parents got divorced and then I got introduced to rock and roll. And then, yeah, then I became a fan, an obsessive one for sure.
Michelle Tea: I relate to that trajectory very much. This thing happened when my parents got divorced, where, like the nuns at my Catholic school, took my mother, sat down with her in her car and was like, “You know, this means you can never be with another man ever again.”
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my god. Wow. Traumatizing.
Michelle Tea: I know, right? Yeah. And so as a result, I mean, my mother was sort of like a little further away from the church because of that. And then I too found rock and roll.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah! Hell yeah.
Michelle Tea: Selena is obviously so crucial in primary for you as you illustrate so, so mystically and gorgeously in your book. And I'm wondering, like what other figures you know, cultural figures, also captured your imagination like that and made you triggered that feeling of devotion?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I feel like I... When I was like, I have these like formative teenage years of rock and roll. So I was very obsess, obsessed. I don't know why this embarrass — I was like, very obsessed with Billie Joe Armstrong,
Michelle Tea: Don't be embarrassed.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I was like, I was like, He's not old enough to, not for me to not marry him one day. And I just like really thought that would happen. And I was just like, so in love with him. And yeah, I think I've had so many like school girl, school girl crushes on like these rock stars. And then like as I became like older, like in my… my mid twenties, early 20s, I, I, I've always been really in love with like Jenny Lewis and Mitski, and just like their songwriting speaks to me so deeply and I feel like I'm like, you know, a few degrees away from them? But I don't know if I ever went across the line.
One time I I asked this like really like convoluted question to this author I really loved. And she was like, “I don't. I don't think I can answer that question.” And I was like, “Oh, no, I'm a loser.” But then I've been lucky enough to like, meet people who I've been fans of and then like or I've just I've been listening to their music for a while and then we become friends and it's cool.
Michelle Tea: I've got to know what your sign is. What's your do you know your astrological makeup?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh, I do. Yeah, I'm a Virgo Sun and a Virgo rising and a Capricorn Moon.
Michelle Tea: Whoa.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah.
Michelle Tea: Obviously, I'm just meeting you for the first time, and you can only gauge so much from, from reading a person's work, but you have such a powerful imagination and it seems like you are so able. In your work, you really present yourself as a character who is really in love with love and really open to the sort of transformative almost like spiritual effects of like love and crushes? Yeah. Do you know what house your things are in?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: So I feel like my, my big three is kind of like almost serial killer vibes like Serial Killer CEO. But I think the reason I'm a poet is because of my Venus in Libra and my Gemini in Mars, my Mars Gemini.
Michelle Tea: Yes, that's what I was looking for. I was like, Where's, where's this like? Love this like, total little love creature, love and crush creature, that Venus in Libra. That's it. But your a Virgo and Capricorn is why you're such a boss poet. I mean, it's hard. Poetry is a hard world to like sort of like, you know, excel in and you know, you have. It's so cool.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: It is. Thank you. That's so kind.
Michelle Tea: Man, astrology is real.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Astrology is real. How does your... how's your whole life not dictated by, like when and where you were born? And like, what was happening with the planets? I don't know. I think it's... I think it's true.
Michelle Tea: So you mentioned earlier that you think everyone should have an altar and I'm wondering what's on your altar right now? That must mean that you have one.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: So I actually only recently got an altar. My, my abuela has had like an altar for la Virgen de Guadalupe. She's just like, always had one. And it's very elaborate. And there's all of these like roses and photos of la Virgen and you know, every day she like lights a candle and puts it in this cup of water and then like to turn off the candle she just like claps and the candle goes away and the light goes away. And then I never thought to make one myself, but I, I just like, missed my grandmother so much. She was, she's been like, stuck in Guatemala and recently came back a week ago because of COVID and stuff. And I was like, I want to... I feel like I want to do this, so I'm going to. So my altar is just like for la Virgen and there's just like candles and flowers and like photos of my family.
Michelle Tea: Oh, that's beautiful. I wonder if there's been like an explosion of altar making in COVID because we all had so many needs that weren't being met, like really crucial needs around connection and family and love. And, you know, feeling like we're interacting with our own destinies. Like all things that having a sacred little space in our house can kind of help with.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah, totally. And I think people really… There is like nothing left to do, but like pray or like, you know, or just like expel these like wishes of something getting better. I love the line between like prayers and spells and like a love poem is like a spell or a prayer for someone to love you back.
Michelle Tea: It is right? I like how you were talking about when you growing up Catholic that you loved to pray. And it just made me wonder like, yeah, do you still pray? And like, how has your how have your prayers evolved? Both like how you pray or what you're praying for or who you're praying to?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Woah, yeah, I mean, I think... Yeah, so as a kid, I used to like, pray every night in Spanish, and I really thought that like God was like in the ceiling. [laughs] And then like, you know, when my parents got divorced and I was listening to a bunch of emo music, I started to like, deconstruct like this, like patriarchal sense of like what God is. And then I kind of became full blown, like none of this, like nihilist, like none of this matters. And then like in the last three years or so I've become.... I've let myself become more spiritual and I have, like, let myself like, pray in a different way. Okay, for example, I don't remember writing these poems. And I keep trying to like, remember a moment. And I was like, “I don't remember sitting down to write this, and I can't explain like… I can kind of explain what was going through my head when I did. But other than that, it feels like kind of magical. And I can put as much work into it and skill as I want and like, give that the credit. But also, like there's something that is like mystical about putting stuff down and I think those are like little prayers. I want them to be.”
Michelle Tea: So your writing process, it sounds like it's very subconscious and mystical.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: It is. I mean, I think it is... Like there's like a ritual to it. Every writer has like a ritual and like, you know, the whole like you're supposed to write every day. I've literally never made this comparison before, but I'm like, “Damn, it is a lot like praying and like rituals.” But yeah, you just like, sit down and then you just like, let it come to you, but you have to do the act of, of sitting down, you know, and like there, the discipline of it. That's the Virgo Capricorn coming in.
Michelle Tea: But that's really true. It's really true. You can't just wait only for inspiration. But I am wondering about like, do you get a sense of like... Does a poem come to you? Like, what does that feel like for you internally?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I have this feeling that I like to call like fertile sadness, which someone is like, “Is that just like melancholy?” But it's just when like, there's like an exact light in the day and an exact sounds from your friends and like dialogue that you're hearing and like an exact someone drops something onto the floor that is very striking and you have to like, open up your phone and write something down and then maybe, you know, edit it later. I also feel like some things, like some moments get like stuck into my head like songs, and then I have to listen to that. And that, I think, is what becomes a poem.
Michelle Tea: There's a part in your book when you talk about — or the narrator talks about — that your mother and sister have seen ghosts. It made me want to ask you about ghosts like were you raised among like people who saw ghosts?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah, all of my — my family is very haunted. And my, my mom sees ghosts all the time. Our house used to be haunted. My sister, my older sister, would always like hear things, and my younger sister had very vivid, freaky dreams and would sleepwalk and like, open the window. Maybe she was having like night terrors or sleep paralysis or something. But yeah, they've all like experienced something and like they go places and they're like, “I don't like how this place feels,” or like, “I had a dream and then the dream happened.” I can't relate to that at all. But I, I just, I've never seen a ghost, but I am always afraid all the time, and I don't trust my fear because it is usually just like my OCD and anxiety keeping me from living my life. But I do think like that part, that like fear and anxiety and OCD that is in my body is like something intergenerational that comes from, like, you know, historical memory and that kind of thing. So like, while, I've never seen a ghost, there are like, you know, ghosts inside of me.
Michelle Tea: I'm wondering if like your, if your family like how they made sense of what they were seeing? Like, do they have a sort of like belief system or philosophy that sort of explains like what ghosts are, why they're appearing, you know, like? I'm just curious, like, do they know like what the hell's going on?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah, I mean, they're just never logical about it. They're never, they're not like scientists about it. They're just like, “I heard something and it was definitely abuelito.” Like, “He's here,” and like, “I almost fell asleep at the wheel last night, but then I saw his face and I did,” and you know or like, “A bird visited me today and it was him.” I was very scared of like encountering a ghost, and my mom, like, didn't like me sleeping with the door closed for some reason because she's crazy, crazy Guatemalan lady. And I'm like, “There's ghosts.” And she was like, “A ghost will just walk through the door.” But also she'd be like, “You shouldn't be afraid of ghosts, because like, ghosts can't hurt you. People do.”
Michelle Tea: Gosh, how great to be raised by somebody who has, like wisdom to share about, like the spirit realm. It’s really cool.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Tea: And she's right. I mean, people hurt you.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: People hurt you. That's right.
Michelle Tea: Not ghosts right?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Yeah.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. Unless, I don't know watching The Haunting of Hill House right now and those people are getting like, fucked up by ghosts.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my god. Yeah. That one is like, ghosts hurt you.
Michelle Tea: Do you have Halloween plans? I mean, I think this might air after Halloween, but since we're talking about ghosts, it makes me wonder like how you celebrate this spooky season, if you do.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my god. Yeah, I love, I love Halloween. My book release is tomorrow at the Brooklyn Museum and the theme is Dead Celebrity Prom.
Michelle Tea: Congratulations.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Thank you. Thanks. So everyone's supposed to dress up as they're favorite dead celeb. And um, and then I think I might be just a bunch of like scream queens from the 90s through, through weekends like Drew Barrymore and Sarah Michelle Geller.
Michelle Tea: Oh my gosh! That's so fantastic. Can I ask what dead celebrity you're being for your party? I mean, are you being Selena?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I think, OK, here's the here's the caveat. I don't think I'm going to. I think I'm just going to look hot tomorrow, but I want to — because like in the book, Melissa is surrounded by dead celebrities, but she's still herself, and that's what I'm going to tell people. But I do want to look like very old Hollywood. I'm wearing this like velvet red dress, doing like a thing with my hair.
Michelle Tea: You're going full like Venus in Libra.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Well, you know, I have got a deck of tarot cards here and I'd be happy to pick some cards for you.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: I would love that. I would love that.
Michelle Tea: Cool. Do you have a particular question? Is there anything that you want some intel about from the, from the spirit realm?
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: OK, I'm going to invoke maybe Venus in Libra and be like, “When is coming into my life?”
Michelle Tea: You want to know what's up in the love realm! OK. This is great. This is classic. People, people like to know this, you know? Even those who do not have a very love centric Venus in Libra. Everyone wants to know. So I'm going to — I'm shuffling the deck, I'm using the Thoth deck and I'm just going to say, like, “What's going on in your, in your romantic sphere right now? What's the energy that’s going on? So we can just get some information. OK.
Oh, wow. Yeah. There's something coming for you, for real.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Wow.
Michelle Tea: Like this, you just got a trio of crazy cards. And when I say crazy, I mean, like, you know, oftentimes usually the tarot readings require some effort of interpretation. And then sometimes it's just like a slot machine where you're like “Bing, Bing, Bing” and just like…
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Michelle Tea: So your first card here is that you got is the Fool, which is about a powerful new beginning. So in the love realm? This is, at the very least, you're getting massively crushed out on somebody like this is like a yes card, and it's like taking chances, taking a risk.And I mean, like, who are the biggest fools in the world like lovers, right? People who fall in love, like it makes you goofy. It triggers all those brain chemicals that make you do stupid things. So it's like… Yeah, if you are feeling, you know, and even I never want to tell anybody to ignore red flags, so I'm not talking about like serious red flags. But if it’s someone where you're like that, “That would be crazy, though.” Like, yes, then that's like…. Because the fool is about taking a big risk and taking a chance. So if it's like, if there's something about it where it's like, “But this person is, I don't know, so different for me, our lives far away from me or as Billie Joe Armstrong,” or whatever, you know, like you want to be able, you want to be able to just be like, “OK, yeah.” Yeah.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my god cool.
Michelle Tea: And then your second card is the Art card, which is a marriage and partnership card.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my God.
Michelle Tea: On the heels of The Fool card, it's kind of like uncannily saying that like, this is a mutual thing.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Wow.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. I mean, you're kind of primed for something to totally occur in your love sphere right now. You know, the fact that it is the Art card, it's also I mean... This is, this is a card that has a lot of complicated meanings. You know, it is talking about art and you are an artist and you are having a big party in an art museum. And I'd say, “Yeah, you do want to be glamorous old Hollywood,” like this could be like the scene of the crime, right? It could be happening somewhere around art. It could be with another artist. It could be a collaborative sort of situation. If there's collaborations in the mix for you, it could be something that becomes romantic. It could be somebody that you end up doing a, you know, maybe the coming together is more of a date, but then you realize like, “Oh, we actually could make things together too.” It could have that higher…
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Wow.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, because this is a very, you know, “out of the two, comes a third,” sort of a deal. It's a riff on the tTemperance card. So it's really — that's really nice because the Fool starts out crazy. It's like, you know, when.... I read somewhere or heard somewhere that there's like, the part of the brain that gets sort of lit up by infatuation is also the same part of the brain that gets lit up by like cocaine. So The Fool's wild times. But then it kind of evens out with the Art card. You're like, “Oh, OK, you know, I don't. This isn't going to be, I don't need to be manic about this. This is happening.” And then your final card is Pleasure. Six of Cups, it's a big love card.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: What! Wow.
Michelle Tea: Yes! Melissa, this is crazy. It's Sun in Scorpio, which, the Sun is in Scorpio. So I feel like... I feel, yes, be ready to fall in love right now. This is your season.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Oh my god. Wow. Oh my god, that's so, that's so exciting.
Michelle Tea: Yeah.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: That was so much fun.
Michelle Tea: I know! I mean, I'm so glad. I mean, often when people, you know, when we pull cards about, like, “What's up with my love sphere?” It's like, OK, well, you got some blockages and you need to let go of your, you know, it's often a lot of psychological work that needs to happen. But like, no man, you're ready. You’re ready to go. And I think love is coming for you. So.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Wow. Oh my God, I'm going to get hit by the arrow.
Michelle Tea: Yes. Oh my god. Yes, you are going to get hit by the arrow. Very, very cool. Enjoy it. It looks, it looks like good times, for sure.
Melissa Lozada-Oliva: Cool. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for the cards. I'm, I'm rejuvenated.
[Music]
Rhiannon Morsch: Hi, I'm Rhiannon Morsch, I'm a Vedic astrologer and reader of playing cards. My spell is a spell for calling in a partner.
For this spell, you'll need a candle, two pieces of paper, a pen and a new moon in the sky.
So on the new moon, light your candle and set your intention to call in the perfect partner for you. Take some time to reflect on what you want in this partner and future relationship. After you feel really solid, then write two lists on two separate pieces of paper.
The first list is everything you do not want in your next partner. And the second list is everything you do want in a partner. Don't be afraid to get really specific and detailed.
When you feel complete, burn the list of everything you do not want in your next partner with your candle flame. Tuck the second list away somewhere very special. And then the key is that after this, you do not want to get serious with anyone you date unless they match your list, so you will need to be patient with this spell.
This is actually my favorite spell because it sounds very simple, but it worked for me. Five months after doing it, I started dating my wife and we have been together now for eight and a half years. She was 99.9% of the things on my list.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thank you Rhiannon Morsch for that fantastic and time-tested spell! I feel like the energy of Rhiannon’s success is forever part of this spell now, and so it’s got that extra oomph. Please let us know how it works for you. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we pray that you’ll join us here again for more witchy conversation and DIY mysticism.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic. You can subscribe to us right here on Spotify — do what you need to do to never miss an episode. You can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you. And you can support us — plus get access to a whole bunch of bonus content — at patreon.com/thisisyourmagic. Later this month, we’ll even be joined by Melissa Lozada-Oliva at our patrons-only book club. Don’t miss it.
This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Vera Blossom. We got production support from Raven Yamamoto. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough.
Tune in next week for a conversation with Liara Roux. Thanks for listening!