Ash Kell: Serial Killer Astrology
Where does our obsession with true crime come from? To answer this question, Michelle Tea is joined by co-host of the Morbid podcast Ash Kell to discuss The Craft-to-witch pipeline, serial killer astrology, and spooky New England vibes. Then, tarot creator Cat Pierce shares a bath ritual to wash away our trauma when we’re feeling triggered.
Ash Kell: I basically had like no choice but to become like a creepy girl, witch kind of person. I think I was like five years old and we started watching The Craft. And I wasn't freaked out at all. I was like, “I want to be Sarah. Like Sarah's so cool.”
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Hello and welcome to Your Magic. I’m Michelle Tea and today I’m talking to a creator of one of my favorite podcasts — Ash Kell. With her sister Alaina Urquhart, she hosts Morbid: A True Crime podcast, which is exactly that, but it also delves into historical hauntings and other fascinating and creepy tales. We’re going to talk Halloween, astrology, and inner children. After that, we’re visited by singer-songwriter Cat Pierce, creator of the beautiful Wandering Star Tarot, who shares with us a bath spell to help flush trauma down the drain.
Stay with us.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Okay, so, I don’t know what’s wrong with me, what sort of glitch in my wiring has produced this reality, but I love being scared. Maybe you do, too. People spend hundreds of millions of dollars on haunted Halloween attractions every October, so I know I’m not alone. After the sad and hauntless Halloween of 2020, I’ve bought tickets to not one, not two but three haunted attractions — including one where I’m going to be required to sign a waiver for, I’ve heard, touching, electrical shock, insects, foul language, projectiles, moving floors, and claustrophobia. Apparently, I will also be armed with a Safe Word, in case any of this proves to be too much. Now, why would I do this to myself? Well, in addition to being under the sway of a host of Shadow Goddexxes — shout out to Hekate, my baddest witch! — I figured there’s probably something scientific at foot, so I hit the Google. And I found a Psychology Today piece by Christopher Dwyer, Ph.D, that broke it down for me. Like every other aspect of my life, my lust for fear is ruled by my biochemistry.
When we get scared, our bodies get bombarded with endorphins, which fire up our opium receptors. We also get a bunch of dopamine, that beautiful high that often comes after a great workout. And, we also get a shot of dopamine’s amped-up sister, adrenaline, which floods our body with energy. But while all the frights are triggering these classic fight-or-flight hormones, our brain is registering that we’re actually safe. That heady disconnect between what our minds know and what our bodies are reacting to is what we paid for: a manic and psychedelic, truly fantastical Halloween experience.
The article also lists ‘closeness with others’ as another reason people seek out scares, and every year for the past five or six I’ve hit the Halloween haunts with my good friend Clint, another queer with serious goth damage. Our annual fright fests are a huge part of our bond; other friends may come and go, but I wouldn’t dream of trolling for terror without him. Like me, Clint is a sober addict, and surely we have some sort of twinning biochemistry that compels us to seek these natural highs. My own addiction always functioned under the philosophy ‘If some is good, more will will be better,’ which is how I find myself, this year, looking for a new kind of kick in the form of the extreme, waiver-requiring haunt. Maybe I’ll encounter my horror limits and come crawling back to the haunted hayride with my forked tail between my legs. Or, maybe I’ll find that the surge of dopamine my body rewards me with for having survived being poked and zapped and insulted just isn’t enough, man. You’ll find me right back here next year, chasing the Halloween dragon, forever in search of an ever stronger, more deeply dreadful, chemical-sparking scare.
Now let’s get to Ash Kell.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Hello, Ash Kell, thank you so much for being on Your Magic today.
Ash Kell: Hello, thank you so much for having me I'm so excited.
Michelle Tea: I really appreciate you wearing your black lipstick and your witch sweatshirt.
Ash Kell: Oh yes. Always, at all times.
Michelle Tea: I'm such a huge fan of your morbid podcast, I want to know when you got so into the things in life that are morbid. What was your first sort of inkling in that dark direction?
Ash Kell: I would definitely have to say my sister, who's my co-host Alaina, obviously. I basically had like no choice but to become like a creepy girl, witch kind of person. I think I was like five years old and she was babysitting me and we started watching The Craft and she was like, “Yeah, this is fine.” And I was like, “Yeah, let's watch it. Like, I love this.” And I wasn't freaked out at all. I was like, “I want to be Sarah. Like Sarah's so cool.” So I think that was basically it.
Michelle Tea: That is so great, I love - I love people whose witch origin stories involve The Craft. So what inspired you guys to actually start doing the Morbid podcast?
Ash Kell: We had both been like super huge fans of true crime in general. Like and we’d always watch the documentaries together, like the old E! True Hollywood stories on like the Black Dahlia and the countdowns and everything like that. And one day we were just sitting with each other. We both listen to podcasts anyway and Alaina and it just kind of looked at me and we're always with each other anyway. So she was like, “Do you want to? Like, should we start a podcast?” And I was like, “Yeah, dude, like, let's do that. That'd be so much fun.” And she was like, “Let's do like a true crime podcast,” because she's an autopsy tech, so she has like that whole world of knowledge. And she was like, “I think it'd be kind of funny because like, you are who you are and we're so different, like, we could totally do this.”
Michelle Tea: And it's so successful because you guys have such a great rapport. And I love that you're from New England. I am too. And I'm wondering how, how, if at all, has like being from New England influenced your style of - of spooky?
Ash Kell: Oh, I definitely think New England inspires like spooky in everybody because I don't even know what it is about New England. There's just - there's so much history here and there's like there's just like this spooky vibe in the air. Plus, we have fall. I think it definitely just made us like feel like we were witches from a young age.
Michelle Tea: It's really true. I'm talking to you from Glendale, California. I've already got all my Halloween decorations out, you know, and it's there's some, but there's something so silly about it because it's like 90 degrees and there's palm trees and there's like skeleton - skeletons and ghosts.
Ash Kell: Mine have been out since September, so it was like eighty five degrees. And I was like, Let's get real creepy already.
Michelle Tea: Do you have any spiritual practice?
Ash Kell: So I... that's like a tough question for me because I like to think that I do, but I'm also like a very lazy person and I'm not very consistent.
Michelle Tea: But that’s fine! Nobody is. I feel like we all put such pressure on ourselves to like be like witch like movers and shakers. Like every month, there's the New Moon. There is the Full moon. Yeah, you got to do your intentions. You get to set out your crystals.
Ash Kell: You got to put the moon water out.
Michelle Tea: Oh God. Yeah, it's too much for anybody. Nobody can stay on top of all of it.
Ash Kell: No, it's true. So yeah, no, I definitely like to think of myself as like a little witch. And I think... It's weird. I feel like this year, especially, I'm getting more drawn into that kind of realm of things like I do really kind of want to become wiccan like, very soon. I just think it'd be really cool and I've been talking to my boyfriend about it. And just like certain beliefs and stuff that I believe in, like the universe, I believe in spirit guides and all that. So I want to get a little less lazy with it this year and really kind of immerse myself in it.
Michelle Tea: OK, so you do this true crime podcast and sometimes you're talking about supernatural stuff and sometimes you guys are getting into the details, a very grisly, you know, things that humans do to other humans. And I'm wondering, do you have anything that you do to sort of like detox from that sometimes because I imagine it must be hard sometimes to have like soaked in a very grisly story for a period of time.
Ash Kell: Oh yeah, it definitely can. I would be lying to you if I told you that I didn't sage myself a lot of the times when I was done doing these like, like, really heavy, like candid research and everything. I have a spray bottle of just sage that I'll just spray around me and like, especially when we do like haunted places and stuff like that, I'm spraying around my computer like, don't escape from the Internet and into my house, like, get away from here. But once I'm finished researching, I'll watch like something silly on TV because I have to get out of that headspace. But there have been times where, especially with certain cases, they - they do stay with you for months on end sometimes like there's been cases that I've done before where I'll start having nightmares about them. So basically I just try to like unwind with like silly TV or like something like that.
Michelle Tea: Mouthwash movies.
Ash Kell: Yes.
Michelle Tea: Right after something disturbing. I find that I really enjoy like Pee Wee Herman’s movies and things like that.
Ash Kell: I love that.
Michelle Tea: Just like anything Pee Wee Herman is just like, “Oh okay.”
Ash Kell: Yeah because it’s just like super lighthearted. I’m like a Bravo-holic, anyone who listens to Morbid knows that I’m like all the Real Housewives, like Below Deck. Just think of all of that stuff that doesn’t really matter and it’s like not anybody’s day-to-day life, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s watch that.”
Michelle Tea: That makes me think of — I read this piece of like Hollywood gossip where it’s like while Jennifer Lawrence was filming the film Mother, she kept a little sheet for it somewhere on the set with like a TV that was just playing The Kardashians.
Ash Kell: Right, that’s perfect.
Michelle Tea: And she would just like… Yeah, when there was a break in filming, because it was such an intense role for her, she would just go into this little, you know, ambient children’s room she constructed and like hang out with The Kardashians.
Ash Kell: I love that because it’s two totally separate wavelengths. Like you’re on way opposite sides of the spectrum there.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. So do you — you guys do so much research. Have you ever actually gone to like a haunted spot to do research?
Ash Kell: We did a recording actually at the Lizzie Borden House, and it was like being from Mass. Obviously, I'm sure, you know, in Fall River, her house is there where the crime happened and everything, and it's like a bed and breakfast now so you can spend the night there. We were like, “Hell, yeah, let's do that.” So we did, and we recorded the episode there in so many freaky things happened during that recording. Even things that we didn't pick up on, like at the time and then listening back or someone else would listen and be like, this minute mark, like, did you guys hear that? We were like, “Oh, like, no, we didn't.”
Michelle Tea: You know, what's so interesting is — and I think about this listening to your podcast and other true crime podcasts — it's like the more time happens between these sort of horrifying incidents, they sort of lose that chilling, sickening edge. Like if you listen to a crime that takes place in sort of more contemporary like in our lifetime or are not that, you know, far before we were born. It's so, you know, the real, the horror is really visceral.
Ash Kell: Oh yeah.
Michelle Tea: Right? But then you can listen to things that happened like the Lizzie Borden story or, you know, farther back in history, it becomes almost mythological.
Ash Kell: No, you're right. It really does.
Michelle Tea: It’s really interesting. That has such a different effect and you’re like, oh, like you think about like Jack the Ripper. Right? And it's like, you know, it's like a boogeyman,
Ash Kell: It's like a tale, because for some reason, it almost doesn't seem real because we didn't - we weren't around when it was being reported on. But you're like, “Oh, that was really real.” And like Jack the Ripper. Like, so scary. Terrifying.
Michelle Tea: Why do you think we are drawn to these stories? What is it about these intense stories that we can't get enough?
Ash Kell: I think like the big part of it is it's like, “Oh, that could never happen to me.” Like, I think that's kind of what draws you to it and like, that's why you can sit in your living room at night and like, consume that because you're like, “No, like that would never happen to me.” And then I don't even know what it is that keeps — cause like, even for me, I think it's just so interesting, but also so sad that these things do happen to people. And like you said, there is so much controversy going on right now in the true crime space. But I think with more, but especially we try to always talk about it from like the victim’s side and honor the victim's memory and keep it going. You know, like especially unsolved cases like, “Spread the word, here are the sources that you can go to to like make sure this gets on the right person's desk or make sure that the right legislature bill gets passed to make sure that this doesn't happen again.”
Michelle Tea: I really appreciate how you guys talk about the victims, like you really do talk about them with such like love and admiration. And I really appreciate that.
Ash Kell: And that's the thing. Like, you spend so much time with these people that you do kind of feel like after a certain point, like you're writing about your friend or you're writing about like a lot of times, especially cases where there's — a lot of times we cover females because that's usually the victim, like most prevalent kind of victim — and especially like when they have sisters, I always think of Alaina and I'm like, Then I start to feel like I'm writing about my sister and I know she'll do the same. You know, you got really connected.
Michelle Tea: What are your plans for this Halloween? How do you celebrate the the high holiday of Halloween?
Ash Kell: It's been so different lately and it's such a bummer because of COVID. Obviously, things are everything's just changed so much. I mean, usually I would go out with my friends to like 47 bars and dress up as something super fun and do kind of like a bar crawl. And then the past couple of years, Alaina has three kids and we're just like super close, so I'm always with them. So I think I'll just go like trick or treating with them around my neighborhood, around their neighborhood and get them ready for Halloween. And I think my boyfriend and I are going to do like a couples costume this year.
Michelle Tea: Oh, that's so cute. What are you guys going to be?
Ash Kell: Last year we were — all of us had to dress up as Toy Story characters for Alaina's kids, so we chose to be Barbie and Buzz Lightyear, and this year there's no theme involved, I guess. We heard from the girls that we were free to do what we wanted. So I think we're going to be Jack and Sally.
Michelle Tea: Oh, that's so cute. Classic. Me, my fiancé are flirting with the idea of Gomez and Morticia.
Ash Kell: I love that.
Michelle Tea: It's classic, right? And we are, but we are also held hostage by the costume choices of the child. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about astrology because I really love how on the Morbid podcast, you're sort of learning astrology in real time.
Ash Kell: Yeah, very much.
Michelle Tea: Did you mistakenly - you mistakenly said that somebody some like serial killer was some sign? And he wasn’t it.
Ash Kell: Oh yeah. Like he was four times a day. I'm like, Oh yeah, he's definitely a Pisces. And Alaina's like, Let's look that up. And it's like, he's a Leo.
Michelle Tea: Oh, no.
Ash Kell: I'm always wrong.
Michelle Tea: Have you ever seen that list? It's like on the internet, where it gives all of the signs, the astrological sun signs, of like all of the most like prominent serial killers?
Ash Kell: Yes. And there's so many Geminis. It terrifies me because I am a Gemini and I am like, I swear, guys, I'm normal, like, I'm not going to do anything.
Michelle Tea: Oh my God, there's a lot of Sagittarians, too.
Ash Kell: And that's my rising sign. So that's good.
Michelle Tea: Well, you're in the right. You're in the right industry.
Ash Kell: I guess so.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Well, I have a deck of tarot cards with me, and I'm wondering if I can pull some cards for you.
Ash Kell: Oh my gosh. Yes, I'm so excited.
Michelle Tea: Cool. So do you have a question? Is there anything you'd like to to know about? Get some insight or clarity?
Ash Kell: So I guess what my question is, I have like... If you listen to Morbid, I think you kind of know like, I have a tough relationship with my mom. I kind of want to know like what the future holds for that.
Michelle Tea: OK. All right. Let's see, I can see I can pull some cards and ask just like, yeah, what does the future hold? Are you in touch with your mom right now?
Ash Kell: I'm not.
Michelle Tea: You're not for now, OK? See what the future holds between you guys. I know that that is something that so many of our readers can relate to, and I can - I can relate to that. I've gone through periods where I've had to stop having contact with my mom.
Oh, my goodness, oh my goodness, I am sorry to say that it does not look like it's getting better.
Ash Kell: You know, that's not surprising and almost like a little bit relieving.
Michelle Tea: It is. It can be, I mean, sometimes like even getting bad news from the tarot is validating, you're like, “I'm not crazy. I'm not overreacting,” like there is real toxic energy here and there is. That's what I'm seeing.
Ash Kell: Wow.
Michelle Tea: The first card that came up. Yeah, the first card that came up is the Three of Swords, and it's called Sorrow in this deck and it's Saturn in Libra. And so, you know, it's a really heartbreaking card. And this, I think, speaks to, you know, the sadness of - of having to — of being in a situation where you have to cut off somebody who's so primary to you emotionally, just like our parents, whether we like it or not, there's so - they're so primary. They're so formative and you know, the Libra is the impulse to - to try to like, “well, maybe I can figure this out. Maybe I can... Maybe I can work with this. Maybe I can harmonize the experience.” And Saturn is coming in like, “No, you can't.”
Ash Kell: It's like, girl, don't do it. You can't keep trying.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, don't. You need a boundary. I mean, Saturn is is so good with boundaries. Libras, like, “I don't need a boundary. I'm just going to be more giving and I'll do something a little different.”
Ash Kell: I'll just people please.
Michelle Tea: Exactly. And Saturn's like, “It's so bad for you.” The next card that you get, here's another swords card. It's the Nine of Swords, which I mean, oh my gosh, talk about a Halloween card. It's nine red swords dripping blood. It’s like really… They don’t fuck around.
Ash Kell: Yeah. That does not look promising.
Michelle Tea: No, it's called Cruelty in this - in this deck. And it's - it's - it's Mars in Gemini. And and I'm always really thinking about why, why Mars in Gemini? I have some ideas I can get into. But you know, the point of this card is that it's like, you know, when this - when this card comes up, it's - it is - it's always possible someone's being cruel to you. And I'm guessing that there was something about the relationship with your mother where there was a cruelty where you weren’t being cared for. You know that you have to protect yourself from. And it's intellectual. So I'm sure it took the form of conversations and words. And bad points of view, toxic points of view. Things like that
Ash Kell: All of the above.
Michelle Tea: Oh, I'm so sorry. I’m so so sorry.
Ash Kell: Thank you.
Michelle Tea: The thing that is scary about this card is that these toxic thoughts can infect our own mind. And then we're having to struggle with, you know, bad negative thoughts inside of ourselves or internalizing things that people think or say. So it's really good that you have boundaries because this is like…. You don't want to let this in. I think what the Mars in Gemini is is like, you know, Gemini... shadow sides of Gemini... there's…. I mean, the thing that's brilliant about Gemini is that you are brilliant. You are... It's like your conductors of so much energy. It's like you have extra antenna in your aura and you're pulling in more energy, more consciousness from - from the, you know, universe than than the average person is. That can be hard also. It can unhinge somebody.
Ash Kell: Oh yeah. Like, you can't turn it off sometimes.
Michelle Tea: And if somebody doesn't have a filter around, like what ideas are good, healthy, helpful ideas and what ideas are toxic and ignorant ideas, like it's just… you know? It's like — and then that Mars makes us... The Mars energy really entitles that Gemini energy to kind of like, put it out into the world. So this is just about putting out bad energy into the world, bad ideas out into the world. So yeah, you have to protect yourself from that. That's really clear.
And you know, this is your final card in the reading is really interesting. It's - it's the Eight of Cups and it's called Indolence in this. And it's another Saturn card, it’s Saturn in Pisces. And what this is about is it like there's something emotional that's being neglected. What I would say about this is that like you were being neglected in that relationship, this is a relationship that like neglects you. It does not care for your heart, it doesn't care for your emotions. And that in order for you to be present in the relationship, you almost have to neglect yourself. It's like you have to throw yourself under the bus a little bit. That's what I'm seeing in this. I do also want to say that like, you know, those aspects of yourself that were neglected... It's like if there's anything that you can do, especially since you want to, I don't know, start - start taking like a Wiccan practice a little bit more, not more seriously, but you want to become more active with the Wiccan practice. I would say that like looking for spells that like heal your heart and like heal — oh my god, I'm going to say it. I'm so sorry. Forgive me — your inner child.
Ash Kell: Oh my god, no. Because that's what I'm trying to do in therapy. And sometimes I'm like, “Is this working?” And like, I know that it is, but I'm like, “Can I just do a spell for this? Can it happen faster?”
Michelle Tea: Spells support therapeutic work like, absolutely. I think that like — I think everyone should be in therapy. This is also popping up to just say that like, you know, the tarot sees you and it sees that this part of your - these really core beautiful aspects of your emotional self have been neglected and not seen. So anything that you can do... Therapy is amazing, but you know, with spell work also to just sort of honor your inner child and honor who you are and, you know, mother yourself. I mean, it's such a weird thing, but I think that, you know, those of us who have experienced poor parenting, part of dealing with that and accepting that is then like, “OK, well, how can I parent myself?” Because we can a little bit, you know?
Ash Kell: Oh, definitely.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, we can recognize that there are these like lovely little parts of ourselves that need nurturing and give ourselves treats. One thing that you could do is just like, really sweet, magical work that like - that sort of supports the sweetness of your own self and the sweetness of who you are and just like giving yourself gifts and treats and ritualized it a little bit.
Ash Kell: I can do that for sure.
Michelle Tea: Good.
Ash Kell: Thank you so much. That was like amazing. And very validating.
[Music]
Cat Pierce: Hi, I'm Cat Pierce, the creator of Wandering Star Tarot, and the ritual that I want to share is an element ritual. It's meant to help you get out of your head and into your body and help flesh any trauma that may be hiding within the physical form.
OK, here's what you'll need for the ritual. For the water element, you need a bathtub filled with hot water. Earth element, epsom salts, lavender and frankincense oil or any essential oil that you love. For the fire element, you need a candle, sage, or Paulo Santo. Something to burn. For the air element, your own cleansing deep breaths.
I like to do this ritual when I'm feeling unsettled or triggered and kind of get into a mind loop about something. I think generally, if it feels out of proportion to what's happening, it's probably triggering some sort of old trauma that may be hiding out in the body. This ritual helps settle in ground and will help move the uncomfortable feelings out of your immediate experience.
Light your candle as you fill the bath and you can burn some Paulo Santo or sage — anything that's going to make the atmosphere really relaxing and anything that’s gonna heighten your senses and get you in touch with the body and out of the mind. Bless the flame by thanking it for its energy and power of transmutation. Bless the water with some loving words to activate its healing properties. Thank the water for its ability to cleanse your body and spirit. Add your sensual oils and epsom salts as you get in the water. Bless these elements by thanking them for their grounding properties. Now, take deep, slow cleansing breaths and imagine your breath as a purifying wind that's going to clear all the emotional debris from your body. Relax, breathe and do body scans and become aware of where you feel the discomfort in your body. Send deep healing breaths to those areas in particular. When you feel you're done, let the water drain while still lying down in the tub and feel the weight of the water, pulling your fears, grief and trauma right out of your body and down the drain. You should feel a whole lot better and lighter and clearer. Now, dry yourself off. Rub some coconut or almond oil into your skin and replenish yourself with a glass of cool water.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thank you Cat Pierce, I really love that ritual and can imagine how the sensation of the water being pulled off your body would feel really powerful and purifying. I can’t wait to try it.
Halloween can be a mixed bag for many of us. A lot of violent imagery can understandably trigger anxieties and traumas, so this spell is being shared at a great time.
But this week isn’t just about Halloween Horrors. It’s also Samhain, an ancient Celtic pagan holiday tons of modern Wiccans observe with ritual and feasting. And it’s immediately followed by Día de los Muertos, the life-affirming Mexican holiday that honors the dead. Whether you’re submitting to the scares of a stranger, bringing a picnic to the grave of an ancestor, or just slipping some snickers into a kid’s plastic jack o'lantern, we at Your Magic hope you have a meaningful holiday.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic. You can subscribe to us right here on Spotify — do what you have to to never miss an episode. And sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and get more musings from our team of spiritual seekers. And you can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you.
This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Vera Blossom. We got production support from Raven Yamamoto. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough.
Tune in next week for a conversation with Coutney LaPlante. Thanks for listening!