Kathryn Hahn: Spiritual High
This week, Kathryn Hahn gets witchy, going deep on how she prepared for her role in “WandaVision,” her love for nuns, and getting through a friendship breakup. Then, producer Vera Blossom closes the show with a ritual for healing from these non-romantic emotional ruptures.
Kathryn Hahn: I really responded to a witch’s relationship to nature. Being barefoot on the grass, the feeling of being looked at by the natural world and looking at the natural world. That kind of power felt really right.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Welcome to Your Magic! I’m Michelle Tea. Today on our show I am hanging with none other than the great Kathryn Hahn. Kathryn Hahn’s presence in film and television from Transparent to Bad Moms to I Love Dick serves to deliver exactly what we, the viewers, are craving — tough love, spiritual vulnerability, authentic audacity, messy art fantasy. With her induction into the Marvel Cinematic Universe via her work in Wandavision, she serves us campy, powerful, meddling witch drama. We’re going to talk about Catholic School, cusp astrology, and friend breakups.
And speaking of friend breakups, our producer Vera Blossom closes the show with a ritual to help you heal from these emotional ruptures. They’re heartaches that don’t get as much attention as the romantic variety but they’re often more profound than losing a boo.
Stay with us.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: So, in the final year of Catholic middle school — like 8th grade, fourteen years old — you’re expected to get confirmed. It’s this ritual where you basically agree, as somewhat of an adult I guess, to accept the whole Christian trip they’ve been laying on you since back in first grade. By the time it came around for me, I didn’t want to do it. I was smelling a rat in the church. I didn’t have clear and articulated gripes, just a strong sense that they weren’t my people. That maybe they were even against my people, whoever my people even were. Mainly, to be honest, I’d discovered the band The Lords of the New Church, and Stiv Bators was making atheism sexy in his scrawny leather pants and eyeliner. I tried to weasel my way out of the ceremony, but my mom freaked, so I backed down. There was, though, one thing about the whole formality that I was kind of into, and that was getting to select, from the assortment of martyred women, my very own patron saint. And I had chosen Bernadette.
Ever since first grade, when Sister Cecelia gave all the kids a 45 of The Song of Saint Bernadette, I’d been enraptured by the story of this French girl with the marvelous name who had a vision of the Virgin Mary while hanging out in a grotto. I didn’t know what a grotto was but it too had a marvelous ring to it. I loved that Bernadette was so special that the goddess had revealed herself to her, and I was drawn to the drama of her persecution, how nobody believed her, in part because she was poor, right? A peasant. And wasn’t I a peasant, too? I imagined a sort of YA novel fantasy in which I could be Bernadette’s bestie, setting up a caper in the grotto, proving to the townsfolk that what she saw was real.
Nearly 40 years after the priest gently pat my cheek, a symbolic slap urging me to be as brave in my faith as Bernadette was in her vision, I sit here at my computer doing a little Google on the saint. And I learn something incredible. Saint Bernadette’s feast day is my freaking birthday. February 18th. Oh my god, I’m getting chills. My heart flutters and tears spring to my eyes — oh my god, this devotion is real. She really is my patron saint. I rebel against Catholicism all the time, having learned to articulate my gripes about their work against women and children and queer people, but I remain a little grateful that this was the branch of Christianity I was baptized into, this goth religion of red velvet and baroque statuary, the blood of Christ and young girls having visions.
Now, let’s go talk to Kathryn Hahn.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: I can't I can't talk to you on a witchy podcast without talking to you about Agnes. And what was it like for you to embody an iconic witch character?
Kathryn Hahn I could not have been more excited, thrilled, flattered, but just thirsty, hungry, you know, turned on by the idea of playing on witch. It was the coolest. I feel like a witch anyway. So I was kind of like excited, you know. Or maybe if I don't feel like a witch, I'm attracted to witches.
Michelle Tea Yeah you have witchy vibes like I was going to ask you. What, what's your like? Do you have like a spiritual practice or a magical practice or whatever you want to call it?
Kathryn Hahn I think I have it in here. But the Mother Peace deck I was just given by a friend, Vicky Noble. Is that her name? I think. That was given to me by a friend this year at a very particularly potent time. And that has been really something I'd never done before on a regular basis. I used to do Runes something to read Runes on like New Year's Eve or sometimes with my hubby. We still have those and I like a really sweet journal that kind of charts our life — we've been together forever and it kind of like you look back, it kind of like charts every place we've been in our life through like the runes that we had, we had pulled for each other. And but yeah, this deck I'm really finding very fertile.
Michelle Tea: Yeah.
Kathryn Hahn: I had never heard of — I'd never heard of her before or I'd never would ever think of doing doing it for my myself. But it's been kind of beautiful.
Michelle Tea: I love doing tarot for myself, just like picking a card just to kind of center myself and being like, what's up? You know, like what do I need to be thinking about today? Or like, what's the energy?
Kathryn Hahn: Yeah.
Michelle Tea: That's floating around me that I can kind of put some images to. And kind of solidify.
Kathryn Hahn: That's exactly it. Before I stretch, before I stretch or before I like whatever. If I, before I, if I want to write. Or before I, you know, and it's something that I wouldn't have thought I had that I had the luxury of time to do before the pandemic, weirdly. Like it's something that has kind of like become a part of my life in this bananas chapter.
Michelle Tea: I feel like pandemic time between like the amount of like weirdness and stress and then the sort of gaps of time that hadn't been available. I think a lot of people got more sort of spiritual or started investigating little like spiritual avenues that, that like you kind of it just kind of something you thought you'd like to do someday. And it's like, oh it's that someday.
Kathryn Hahn: Yes.
Michelle Tea: I guess I'm going to, you know, sync my chakras or like whatever.
Kathryn Hahn: Whatever. I mean, I know, you know, I grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic school up through high school. So taught by the nuns. And I love a nun.
Michelle Tea: Same.
Kathryn Hahn: Oh, you were too? Oh my God, I love it.
Michelle Tea: Till ninth grade. Yeah.
Kathryn Hahn: Oh, my God. Amazing.
Michelle Tea: You love a nun. What do we love about a nun?
Kathryn Hahn: I love commitment. I love that kind of faith. I love that kind of like outside of like especially maybe the older I get, I'm kind of into the idea of shedding the gaze, G-A-Z-E, on you in any way. Like I read — my friend just sent me this thing about medieval nuns that used to get hot flashes were kind of contagious while they were praying. And so there would be like this this like it would be like this kind of like real like a spiritual kind of high. And I also just love the idea of just like committing to a life. It's something I could not do.
We had some pretty progressive nuns, I think. And I just remember being like, how do you reconcile? Like, all all of it. Like, how do you reconcile it? Like, this was always such an interesting thing to to debate with them because, you know, they're under the umbrella of this thing that's so, you know, patriarchal and sexist and homophobic. And like all those things, I was like, how do you, like, commit then still? And they just have had the nuns I knew at least had such a direct line to whoever their God was. I was just such so interesting to me.
Michelle Tea: And then like maybe the sacrifice is worth it to just live in this, like, secluded community of other women.
Kathryn Hahn: Yes, exactly.
Michelle Tea: Have this lifestyle. Like, how else do you make that happen?
Kathryn Hahn: Like a monastic uniform where you just live in prayer.
Michelle Tea: I mean, there's something I mean, there's something very attractive about that to me. Not Catholic nuns specifically, but just this monastic idea.
Kathryn Hahn: Me too.
Michelle Tea: Like giving it all up just to go sit in a cave for the rest of your life and just be like, “This is meaningful. This is very meaningful.”
Kathryn Hahn: I've always wanted to do like a silent retreat.
Michelle Tea: I hear that people just break down and sob at some point in a silent retreat, everybody has a meltdown at some point.
Kathryn Hahn: I mean.
Michelle Tea: I’ve never done it either. I'm very attracted to it also.
Kathryn Hahn: I'm very.
Michelle Tea: It would be good to shut up. You know what I mean? For a minute. For like a stretch.
Kathryn Hahn: Me. Too.
Michelle Tea: I want to ask you, I mean I don't know what, how your process is in general, like when you prepare for a role. But I'm really curious about when you were preparing for Agnes, like, did you do any like witchy like research or was there anything specifically...
Kathryn Hahn: Yes.
Michelle Tea: Specific to that character?
Kathryn Hahn: I did all of it. I mean, you know, it's real fictional because, like, she comes from New Salem, um a New Salem, but they were actually witches. And so it wasn't like, you know, the women that were, you know, victims of being burned at the stake for simply whatever, looking at someone sideways or, you know, dropping a thing of bread. So these were like, you know, she was an actual witch who even could have been older, even from like the 1600s, I think somewhere in Europe, according to some of the comics. And so I did do a lot of you know, I read the Witch’s Bible, I read all of all of it. You know, the thing that I took the most for this part, because it was like in the same you know, you can't — she's her own bird. But I really responded to a witch's relationship, to nature, being barefoot on the grass, to feeling like the natural world is for you, the feeling of being looked at by the natural world and looking at the natural world. That kind of power felt really right, like the roots of a tree kind of witch. I mean, I remember going to a campout with my son's school and I had just gotten the part and it was freezing out. And it's like in October, pre pandemic, and we were all outside and I could see the tops of the trees like ringing this — ringing this little, you know, fake bonfire because there's no fires allowed to be made. We were so cold. It was like, it was like a forest fire chapter. But I could see the tops of the trees and just imagined floating above it. And that was very potent. And also as a woman in her later 40s, who is, you know, reproductivity, if that's the word, is coming to a close. It's like this mysterious next amazing chapter of like we're still here. There's a lot to offer that is scary and mysterious. And it's not just about making babies. So what is this vessel? Like what, what's happening? And so I really respond to that in terms of a witch as well.
Michelle Tea: I love that. I love the "what is this vessel?"
Kathryn Hahn: What's the next?
Michelle Tea: What's the next stage for like power in this body?
Kathryn Hahn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Going back to nuns, like there's something about it that's like, just feels very essential. Like I would pretend we would pretend Priest and I would use Necco Wafers.
Michelle Tea: Yes.
Kathryn Hahn: Did you do that?
Michelle Tea: Yeah, we’d play church with like — the candies we used were actually the same thing that they made the frickin wafers out of, but they would look like spaceships and they had little candies inside of them.
Kathryn Hahn: What the hell were they called? I know exactly what you mean.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. You would peel the two sort of crackery pieces and dump out the candy and then use the crackery wafers as the body of Christ.
Kathryn Hahn: That is so much better than a Necco wafer or a Smartie.
Michelle Tea: Yeah.
Kathryn Hahn: Sometimes we used Smarties.
Michelle Tea: That works though.
Kathryn Hahn: And I got to play the priest, which I was very excited about.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Kathryn Hahn, I'd love to give you a tarot reading. What would you like to pick cards about?
Kathryn Hahn: Without going into any specifics because who needs it: I'm still in a, I guess a mourning phase of a friend of a friendship that was like very profound. And the friendship is... it's… somehow it's not happening. And I miss it terribly. So I would just… But I also know that we have grown. And so I would love to know, just like, I guess A.) want to send love to the person and and also, I suppose, I don't know if it's like how to get over it or how to move through it or how to what, what it will transform into or like. So that's exactly I don't know how to word the question.
Michelle Tea: The first questions I have are, is there a world where you reach out to this person or is that like off the table? You're like, no.
Kathryn Hahn: It's off the table per this person.
Michelle Tea: OK, per this person. OK, so really, it's about how do you heal now and move away from this?
Kathryn Hahn: Yes.
Michelle Tea: From this friendship. Without, I know you don't wanna get into too much detail, but like, can I ask how long of a friendship it was?
Kathryn Hahn: Years and years and years and years and years.
Michelle Tea: Years and years. OK, OK. So kind of feels like it has like formative vibes like you guys really...
Kathryn Hahn: Yes. Oh for sure. Like I see the world kind of. Yeah.
Michelle Tea: In a certain way because of your influence by this person. OK.
Kathryn Hahn: I feel like this is a relatable thing also because I feel like a lot of friendships, it's hard to know when to fold them with love, you know, like how to move forward with love.
Michelle Tea: OK, I'm going to do a little past present future reading because that's what I feel like. I'm going to pick some cards that illuminate, you know, what the vibes were in your past, you know, probably the more recent past. And then like what, what's the energy that's around you for it today and then for the future, what you should be moving forward as you sort of kind of, I guess, you know, heal from a friend breakup, which is really — our culture doesn't give that much attention to friend breakups, but they can I have found them to be very profound, you know?
OK, it looks like it's actually very good for you to not be in the friendship right now. Actually, it looks really like it's the right thing for you because of the three cards that I picked for your present moment, you have the Wheel of Fortune and the Wheel of Fortune is always like, yes, you know, a change, a change for the better. So, you know, I don't know how, how you receive that and kind of rectify that. It looks like it's really complicated because you also have The Devil, right? So that's — that's hard. The Devil is such a complicated card because the Devil is a complicated symbol in our culture.
Kathryn Hahn: Yes.
Michelle Tea: So, you know, so, you know, on the one hand, The Devil can represent things where we feel like someone else is the boss of us. We are not our own influence. We're under someone else's influence or something else's influence that isn't necessarily good for us. It can be a little bit toxic. So I feel like this might be just representing just like complicated feelings, you know, even though I think that on some level you do know that, like letting go and moving on is best. And the thing about Fortune is it's a, it's a card about it's the Wheel of Fortune. It's about change. It's about emotions, about things moving forward and trusting that the move forward is a good move. And I like this. The third card for your present that you have is Abundance.
Kathryn Hahn: Oh my god.
Michelle Tea: It's so beautiful. And this is about like communion with others. It's Mercury in Cancer. And so it's also saying that, like you actually, you know, with all respect to how formative this person was in your life, you also have so many people in your life right now who maybe are a better fit for who and what you are at the moment, like who can get you a little bit better and give you the sort of friendships that, that you really need right now or the love that you need right now. So you're certainly not hurting for love in your life as a result of this. It looks like looking at the past of it, you have the Ten of Cups, which is called Wealth. So I mean, to me, this is like it’s saying two different things that almost seem a little contradictory. And one, it being called Wealth. It's like, yeah, there was a lot there. You guys meant a lot to each other. You gave each other a lot, but it's also a ten. So it's almost like you came to the end of what you guys could give each other.
Kathryn Hahn: That's beautiful.
Michelle Tea: And it looks like maybe you guys stuck around a little longer than you needed to. You can see that everything is really pretty in it, but there's choppy water underneath. So it's sort of like things look nice on the surface, but it's choppy. And so it's sort of like having to — I feel like this is a period of time of maybe having to come to terms with like, “Oh, I have to look in the face the ways this isn't — the way this connection isn't working for me anymore. I have to get real about it before something happens to make it - to make it worse.”
And then the last card for your past is the Ace of Swords. And that's about a big decision, a big decision that maybe it's even a little bit cold-hearted. It's intellectual and friendships we always think of as happening in the realm of the emotions. But it looks like it was like a conscious thought on one or both of y'alls part to be like this, this needs to be severed with this sword here. We need to cut it out.
Kathryn Hahn: That's what happened.
Michelle Tea: I wouldn't be surprised if in the future there's a coming back together of sorts, but for now it's really about you.... I don't know if it's almost about you sort of gathering your strength independently of her. It's almost the way in like — we see this in like romantic breakups where like somebody like is in, I don't know, is in a codependent relationship and then they break up and they have to kind of find their power again. I don't know if your friendship ended up being a little bit “codefriendant,” but it's like about you kind of coming back into your power.
Your future card is the, is The Emperor, which is about like being on top of the world kind of and just being like, I'm calling my own shots. I am my own influence, you know, I'm like, I'm ruling my life. And like, this is a really great place for you to be in coming into your future.
And then the story gets a little complicated. Then we get the, the Five of Wands, which is called Strife. And I feel like there's going to be a point at some point in the future where there's maybe a little bit of like, “Uh, I still feel a little tormented by this. I still feel a little haunted by this.” Like there's going to you're going to want to share things with this person. You're going to want to reach out. I don't know that you will or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if you did, because then your next card is Change, Two of Disks.
Kathryn Hahn: Oh wow.
Michelle Tea: Capping it off, the grand finale. And then the Magician. Which is like... So that's very bright and very beautiful and I mean, you know, is this next year, is this in five years? I don't know, you know, I think that I hope it's a while, actually, cause I really want you to enjoy this Emperor card and enjoy what it feels like to kind of not be friend-partnered with this very important, influential person in your life. To, to be sort of without their influence, I think is going to be very meaningful for you.
But you're going to hit a wall with it. And I think that you'll feel that maybe that things have moved enough and changed and progressed enough that maybe... maybe a risk can be taken at that point. And it's going to be really on you to figure out like what you want and what kind of risk you can take. I see this with the Magician because I think you'll get what you want. I mean, when The Magician comes up, we get what we want. We manifest in ways that are pretty powerful. So, you know, do you want to just be able to drop a line and say, “Hey, I appreciate what you gave to me, you know, what our friendship gave to me?” Or do you want to say, like, “Hey, let's try being casual friends,” like whatever it may be, it looks like you can have that at some point in the future, but it does look like it's something to be resisted for now.
This, this, this friendship? And I'm holding up The Devil card, as I say that because it does look like this friendship has a really powerful pull on you and it's almost like you need to detox from it, which is not to say it was completely toxic, but there's almost like... you need to let yourself air out from it, and become that, and become that different version of yourself outside outside of that relationship. Does that make sense?
Kathryn Hahn: It makes total sense, yes. Like, I'm very moved by this because it does feel that. I feel like the Strife card in the future is that — is unfinished business in some way with, with this with this human being that there is so much love there. But that there but that card from the past really resonated, that maybe we kept it going in that form longer than it... then we needed it to be. I will just speak for myself. I definitely need... didn't realize that I needed the space to independently.... I love that co, code-friendship, code-friendship.
Michelle Tea: Yes. Codefriendant.
Kathryn Hahn: Codefriendant. Yes I was. Yeah. That, that, that it was that we were it was we were so embedded that we didn't realize how... in what ways we were not taking care of each other or how we were affecting the other person. It just… we just allowed it to be on the surface for too long, almost until it was like too late. And so I think you're right that there is unfinished... for sure, unfinished business. But, and I and I'm also really going to listen to the fact that it's OK to be in this period of mourning and that's... there's nothing to be done right now is what I'm hearing.
Michelle Tea: I think that's really clear. Yeah, there is nothing to be done right now. And even though you might be tempted to sometimes because to maybe relieve the pain of the mourning.
Kathryn Hahn: Right.
Michelle Tea: It's not the best move for you. It's just trusting that like that will lighten with time with this Wheel of Fortune here, with the passing of time, you know, it will it will lighten and feel brighter. And I think that there's just like more insights on their way to you around this friendship.
Kathryn Hahn: It is interesting when you also time helps, certainly... refracts back maybe how one's behavior was in it myself. I have historically been a very rash person, like I'll just press send, hence my not being on any social media. So... I don't trust it at all. So I think that that is something that I've, that, that I'm responding to in those cards too is like just the like sitting in the just taking my taking my time.
Michelle Tea For whatever it's worth, this Strife card that's in the future, it is Saturn in Leo. So it is that — the nature of why this is a stressful card, it's that Leo exuberance that does just want to hit send and wants to just like express itself, right?
Kathryn Hahn: Yes.
Michelle Tea: And be heard and to hear and then Saturn's like, “Nope, nope. It's not the right time.” So you might just come across that again. And but then again, followed by this Change card, this is Jupiter in Capricorn. It has a similar energy to the Five of Wands because they're both Saturn, Saturn-y. But in this card, in the Two of Disks, the Capricorn, which is ruled by Saturn, it's being forced to open up a little bit and to be like, “OK, well, what what could a change look like?” So I feel like that will come for you, but coupled with time and space and insight, you know?
Kathryn Hahn: OK. I feel all of that. Amazing.
Michelle Tea: Thank you for letting me pull cards for you on such a busy day.
Kathryn Hahn: Oh, Michelle, I'm very, very. Oh, I am. This was this was my my sacred moment. So thank you so much.
[Music]
Vera Blossom: I’m Vera Blossom, a producer at Your Magic, a fledgling witch, and I’ve got a lot of experience with friendship breakups.
I’ve got a spell for when you know it's time to break up with a friend or when you’ve already broken up with a friend and need to find some closure. This will help you draw boundaries with the friend the next time they want to hang out, feel empowered to say no to them, or be ready to have a direct conversation with them about why you need space. If you’ve already broken up with a friend and you need to find some closure, then I hope this spell will help you take the next step to move forward without focusing on lingering feelings of guilt.
All you’ll need is a candle, a pen and paper, and a cauldron or small fire-safe bowl.
First, light the candle. You can use a white candle for cleansing or an orange candle if you need some courage.
Second, start writing a letter. Address the letter to the friend in question. Write down the things you love about this person or fond memories you have with them. Start out with three things, but if there’s more, keep writing.
Then, write down the reasons why you need to sever this relationship for your own wellbeing.
As you write, take some quiet time to reflect on what you’ve written and listen to your body. Do you feel tense, angry, frustrated, or scared when you think of this person? Do those negative feelings outweigh the feelings of joy and sweetness? These are all valid reasons that you may need to sever your connection.
When you’re ready, put the paper in an envelope.
Cut or rip the letter into strips while thinking about severing the connections you have with them and light those pieces up one at a time and let them burn in a fire-safe cauldron. While keeping the reasons you need to sever this connection in mind, let the feelings of guilt or hurt or bitterness you might have burn away as the paper turns to ash.
Take as long as you need to say goodbye and blow the candle out.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thank you, Vera Blossom. I could get deep into how our culture’s devaluation of friendship has its roots in misogyny and enforced heterosexuality but you all already know that. And now you have a little something to help you, should your own complicated, emotional, formative, platonic love affair go south. Time heals all wounds, and there are plenty more witches in the coven, but until you’re ready to open yourself up to a brand new bestie, take care of your heart. And everyone else, send your bestie a little love spell text or something today.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic. You can subscribe to us right here on Spotify — just do what you need to to never miss an episode. You can also sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and get more musings from our team of spiritual seekers. And you can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would truly love to hear from you.
This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Vera Blossom. We got production support from Veronica Agard, Kristine Mar, and Raven Yamamoto. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough.
Tune in next week for a conversation with Shea Couleé. Thanks for listening!