Saeed Jones: Gay Boys Collecting Rocks

Deciding your next career move can be a daunting task. In this episode, writer Saeed Jones joins Michelle Tea to consult the tarot before making a big choice — and along the way, the two discuss the magic of befriending a stranger, growing up Buddhist, and having a well-curated rock collection. Then, Edgar Fabián Frias gives us a spell to help us find the job of our dreams.

 

Saeed Jones: Poetry helps us connect or reconnect language to the ineffable — that moment when, if you're lucky enough either to just observe and be paying attention that there's this other plane of of connection. And I think that's magic.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: This is Your Magic. I’m Michelle Tea.

On our show today I’m talking to Saeed Jones, award-winning writer of memoir and poetry, giver of advice, and creator of culture. We’ll talk about ghosts and crystals and what his next power move should be.

And, if you’re itching to make a power move of your own, we also have artist and psychotherapist Edgar Fabian Frias with a spell to get you a little closer to your dream job.

Stay with us.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: When I was in my early twenties, an aspiring poet frequenting San Francisco’s nightly open mic events, I found myself frustrated with the overwhelmingly straight, white, male presence on the stages. It was an endless loop of Bukowski acolytes and Kerouac wannabes. With another queer poet, I started Sister Spit, it was an open mic event where only past, present or future women were permitted to perform. It really took off and then evolved into a highly regarded literary tour that still travels the U.S. each year. 

And I wasn’t the only one taking matters in my hands back then. All around me, queers were opening DIY cafes, opening dyke-identified tattoo shops, women-run auto shops. They created queer punk festivals and opened art galleries. And they built it all from the ground up with grit and grift, scruffy labors of community love making space in the world for people relegated to the margins.

I see something like this happening right now with the proliferation of spiritual practitioners daring to try to make a living off of doing what they love. Sensing a cultural need to connect with the intuitive arts, and then gathering that confidence to put themselves out there — these folks have added to a billion-dollar industry and shifted the picture of psychic services away from, you know, 1-800 lines and towards images of art-witches painting oracle decks, breath workers and sound bathers inviting us to heal and grow in their workshops. Next-generation occult shops have cast off the ren-faire esthetic of dusty, velvet curtains and instead occupy gallery-like spaces infused with pink neon and a dedication to an antiracist, feminist, queer politic. 

I want to salute all the mystical enchantrepreneurs out there working at making a living doing what they love. Seek their services. Go get a palm reading, have your chart read, your chakras inspected, your aura photographed. These splurges may, at the outset, seem like indulgences, but the way they bring you closer to your own spiritual core — you can’t put a price on that. 

Here’s Saeed.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Hi Saeed!

Saeed Jones: Hello.

Michelle Tea: I'm so happy that you're here. It's so nice to see you and hear you.

Saeed Jones: It's good to see you. 

Michelle Tea: I want to know, like, what does magic mean to you? 

Saeed Jones: Yeah, you know, obviously as a poet, my relationship to language kind of informs reality. So I think in the way that, like, poetry helps us, you know, connect or reconnect language to the ineffable, I think I think that's what magic is too — that moment when, if you're lucky enough either to just observe and be paying attention or to or to even, you know, of course, create, you know, something that, you know, ones and zeros and, you know, standard Webster's Dictionary kind of definitions might not quite work with. But that there's this other plane of connection. And I think that's magic. 

Michelle Tea: Have you experienced that in your, like have you had, like, sort of uncanny moments of connection that have made you feel like there is this sort of ineffable layer around us? 

Saeed Jones: Yeah I do. I mean, you know, and I think, often, you know, our relationships, our kind of human connections, I think are often the best example. 

I would say, you know, as someone who has experienced deep grief and, you know, I wrote about it in my memoir, How We Fight for Our Lives. You kind of see it towards the end of the book where, you know, it's all almost a year after my mother has passed away, actually a few months after my mother has passed away, and I think I was just radiating Mother Grief, you know, which I think is, you know, I think there are different species of grief. And I was in Barcelona, Spain, you know, in a hostel, really trying to be a stranger. I didn't you know, I didn't go on that trip, you know, expecting to make friends or connect with people. I really just wanted to be almost a ghost, minding my business in this beautiful city and this short white old lady from Ontario — I eventually learned she was a, you know, a retired nurse from Ontario, Canada named Esther — was also in my hostel. And we just kept gravitating toward each other. 

It irritated me at first because I was like, “I'm not trying,” you know what I mean, like, “I'm not trying to spend time with you, lady. You know, I've going mind my business,” but she just wouldn't let go. And then and then I kept finding myself drawn to her in that way that I think, you know, again, like that observation, that ineffable, I was like, I don't know, there's something. There's you know, logically, this does not make sense why I keep opting to spend time with her. Why are we going to lunch now? Why are we going to the beach together? 

Michelle Tea: Oh my gosh, you were really sharing your time with her.

Saeed Jones: Oh honey, you would have thought we flew there together. You know what I mean? And I remember we would joke that the two of us together looked like we had been cast for some Discovery Channel travel show. Because it was just such an odd pairing and we were just going everywhere, you know? 

And then at the very end of our trip together, you know, I finally felt comfortable opening up and I was like, you know, “I got to be real, Esther, my mom passed away a few months ago and I haven't talked to anyone else on this trip about it.” And she was like — and remember she was like a retiree, you know — and she was like, “My mother passed away a few years ago.” And we just looked at each other across the table. And so to me that that's magic. You know what i mean? When you’re just … and I think there is a magic to all of our relationships and connections. But to me, the magic is how wonderful and rare to have it so purely, you know, kind of point to itself. Looking at the sunset, you know what I mean? Like whoa, yeah, so. 

Michelle Tea: I know that you were raised Buddhist and I'm wondering how that influenced you spiritually, what that was like for you growing up and how, you know, if you have a Buddhist practice today.

Saeed Jones: Absolutely, I mean, I think, you know, I was I was chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo earlier today. I don't practice Buddhism, which I would say, like, you know, I don't chant mornings and evenings and, you know, follow the liturgy as I used to. But I do view it as a life philosophy that informs me. So, you know, when I know that I'm just, like, really frazzled or distracted or whatever, I know I can, like, draw on aspects of that faith and life philosophy to refocus myself. So that’s kinda where I am now.

I will say, you know, Nichiren Buddhism in particular is really focused on cause and effect. You know, it's about the causes we make and the effects we reap as a result. And so I think that, you know, that that sets up your relationship to narrative. You know what I mean?

And so the Buddhist life philosophy was it just was so common sense and explained in a way that, like, helped me understand physics and literature that I think it naturally has come to inform so many aspects of my writing, like the natural environment always, you know, figures into my storytelling, you know, for example. 

Michelle Tea: I know that you have a rock collection.

Saeed Jones: I do.

Michelle Tea: And I like I want to know about it. It’s so, it’s such a cool thing to have a rock collection.

Saeed Jones: Yeah so like, when I was… you know and I've discovered, like, a lot of gay boys, gay men, had like rock collections, like we all had our own like —  

Michelle Tea: Really?

Saeed Jones: Oh yeah, it’s a thing. I think it’s ... I’ve discovered ... to me, it’s almost, it’s like — and I will say I was born in 1985 so I can, you know, speak primarily to my generation — but I noticed like some of the things we have in common. We all thought we were the only ones in Greek mythology. We all thought we were so slick. We all thought we were the only ones who discovered that something was going on with Details magazine in the early 2000s, like, “Oh, like, let me get a subscription,” you know, and we all had rock collections. We all had, like, our little tiger's eye and malachite, everything like that. 

As an adult, I've started to collect rocks that are more mementos of of important places like I have a piece of and I can't actually remember the name, but basically, a piece of coal, because my friend Isaac and I, we spent some time in Pittsburgh and we, you know, and for our trip, for the purposes of the trip, we visited like it like a steel factory, you know a defunct steel factory. And it was like a really complicated trip for us. And I wanted something to hold onto to remember it. And that's kind of, you know, the vibe of of why I collect rocks now.

Or you know, at one point when I was working on the book, I went to Southern France for four months so I could like write — yeah, it was pretty nice, pretty nice — and write in relative isolation and so for part of that trip, I was like, I was on the beach a lot. So I would kinda collect rocks from there.

Another, what's another type of …. actually the rocks I have the most of our like black tourmaline. 

Michelle Tea: Oh, yeah.

Saeed Jones: Which my friend Jenna Wortham suggested I get a few pieces of when I went on the book tour because I was like, “OK, this, this memoir is coming out,” and I'm going, you know, like books are weird. You know, they kind of can bring up a lot. So I was like, is there something I can just like, have in my pocket with me? 

Michelle Tea: Yes, that's a good one. That'll just absorb all the all the weird vibes. 

Saeed Jones:It did. I kept it with me. I had this one piece in particular, and I kept it with me in my pocket for the entire book tour. And actually one point I thought I lost it and I hadn't it was just like really deep in a jacket pocket that it's still been with me. You know, while I'd been traveling and the trip was good. Good vibes. 

Michelle Tea: Oh, that's so great. You know, you're living a certain life when you, like, are finding crystals, like buried at the bottom of pockets of different items of clothing. 

Saeed Jones: Like you’re going through TSA.

Michelle Tea: Totally. Do you think that the rocks hold onto the energy of their environments, the places that you found them?

Saeed Jones: I think so. I think so. I mean, again, because of, you know, the way I think of, you know, oneness of self and environment and cause and effect. I mean, I know it's a bit of a loop, but I think, you know, if you believe, if if you allow a person, place or thing, you know, to take on a kind of resonance, and particularly if you consistently when engaging that person, place or thing, think of it in that way. Absolutely. You know what I mean?

I don't know if it's, you know, because you're perceiving it that way or because that's just like what it is, but, yeah, I believe, you know, that's why I believe like I believe it's possible for a place to be haunted, you know, as a result of of a certain kind of history, you know, over times, because I think, you know, we as people certainly accumulate vibes and tendencies and worldviews over the years of our lives. And I don't think it would just be limited to us. 

Michelle Tea: That makes me want to ask you if you've ever seen a ghost.

Saeed Jones: I — so my mom saw one ghost that she told me about. She saw my, she saw my grandfather like a couple of weeks after he passed away. She said she was sitting at the kitchen table like a nice, quiet morning drinking her coffee. And she saw him in his bus driver's uniform. And he had been retired for some time, walking across the lawn toward the door. And he was smiling and she just said it was like you said like so grounded, so simple that she actually got up and went to the front door and opened it. And he wasn't there. 


[Music]

Michelle Tea: Can I pick some cards for you?

Saeed Jones: Please. I would love that. 

Michelle Tea: OK, cool. Is there anything special that's like anything pending? Anything on your mind?

Saeed Jones:  You know I think as a writer I will say, you know, finishing a book and a memoir in particular like it's been a big book.

Michelle Tea: Yeah. Very big book.

Saeed Jones: You know, a lot of life changes is tangled up in it. And then when you finish it, I think, you know, I've just found myself delighted, so grateful and proud of what I accomplished. But now, you know, I'm in that space where if you're lucky enough, people notice your success and then you end up having, like, a lot of choices about what to do next. 

Yeah, I really like the image has come to mind is that I feel like I'm in a valley or something, and it's like several mountains, several trails have kind of presented themselves, and it's like which one, you know, it's going to be a climb no matter what, you know, it's not about like avoiding, you know, the ardor of it all, but like, which one? Yeah.

Michelle Tea: OK, I love doing readings like this actually, when people have a bunch of different options and they're just not sure. We can see like which road is the most open or like what's the energy?

OK so like what's... what's the first path? What would the - what would the first path, potential path, be? 

Saeed Jones: There's poetry, right. Like, do I just like kind of stick with, you know, going back to that form. I've been writing poems and is that what I should kind of lean into and fully focus on?

Michelle Tea: So that’s what I'm shuffling on right now, then. I’m gonna shuffle right now on what does it look like for your primary intention and your - and the most of your energy to sort of direct itself towards poetry right now? Just picked three cards on that, path number one. What's path number two? 

Saeed Jones: I'm interested in television. Yeah, I watch — it’s always been like I feel like a private artistic consumption in that I watch so much television. But like you know, I'm not a TV writer. It's not, it's not what I'm known for. But there have been some opportunities in that space and and that is is exciting but very different, you know? And I think that is both cool, but also like, how do we do this? Yeah.

Michelle Tea: All right, cool. Let's see. I'm picking three cards now for TV. Is there a third path? 

Saeed Jones: Maybe the third path is like just like other ideas that are like looser, more amorphous. 

Michelle Tea: Amorphous sort of, OK. So is there something that hasn’t quite articulated itself so clearly yet?

Saeed Jones: Yeah. It's like, should I, you know, because, you know, we all live live under capitalism's boot heel.

Michelle Tea: Sure do.

Saeed Jones: So it's also like, girl, why are you rushing to find your next thing?  Like maybe this valley is really nice and I need to spend some time here. Like why am I rushing to get to the next mountain?

Michelle Tea: OK, cool. So the path number three is sort of like an anti path of just like “I'm going to just chill where I am right now and not feel a pressure to produce the next thing or jump on another project.” 

So the first card for your poetry pull is the Ace of Cups. Very nice for poetry. You know, it's about like rejuvenate, emotional rejuvenation. Like a font of just like emotion, like lots of — oh, and another Ace. Ace of Swords. Whoa. 

Saeed Jones: Oh my gosh. 

Michelle Tea: Poetry sort of is like Ace of Cups plus Ace of Swords because there's such emotion in poetry, even when it's not, you know, specifically articulated, it just it evokes emotion, I guess, like it evokes emotion with the power of the sword, which is writing, creativity, mental mental action. And Virtue. That's very nice. 

Saeed Jones: Oh my gosh! 

Michelle Tea: The Virtue card for me is ... there's cards in the in the major arcana that when they pop up, it's a giant yes. You know, and in the minor arcana, the Three of Wands is really that card for the minor arcana because it speaks about the perfect application of your energy. You're putting your energy in the perfect, appropriate direction. It's sun in Aries. So like whatever else might be happening for you… um… yes. 

Saeed Jones: That's pretty clear.

Michelle Tea: You should definitely — and it sounds like from what you said, you're already writing poems, right? You’ve been working on poems? 

Saeed Jones: Right yeah. 

Michelle Tea: I mean, I don’t know. I mean I'm sure you would agree that being a poet, it's sort of like it's one of those things that's in you. And you might you'll probably be doing it no matter what. You know what I mean? 

Saeed Jones: Right. That's true.

Michelle Tea: Like even if you become like a high-powered Hollywood showrunner, you'll be like sneaking off into the bathroom to, like, jot down a lyric, you know?

Saeed Jones: True, true.

Michelle Tea: So yeah. That looks like a beautiful path for you to do another poetry book. I’m excited as one of your readers.

Saeed Jones: I love it.

Michelle Tea: OK, so now let's look at what the TV world looks like. Your first card for that is the Four of Swords, which is called Truce in this deck. And it's a Libra card. It's Jupiter in Libra. That's very nice and an interesting card. 

And then your next card is the Princess of Cups. She's a doll. I love her.

Saeed Jones: Love her.

Michelle Tea: Yeah.

Saeed Jones: Love a princess. 

Michelle Tea: And then your final card is The Fool card. Yes. Yes, you should be. 

Saeed Jones: Oh, my gosh. 

Michelle Tea: You should be a fool. Like so many other fools who've gone to Hollywood to pursue success. Come join me here. 

Saeed Jones: I love it.

Michelle Tea: Oh, my God. This looks really good. I love this. OK, so you know the story here, the Truce card coming up, it's really interesting. I think that there's some facet of this path that you have to make peace with before you - before you embark upon it.

You know, I — gosh. One of the things that's popping up for me because it's Jupiter in Libra…. Jupiter brings, is the planet that brings gifts, right? Jupiter is a — and it's your ruling planet, right? It's a big, happy, let's-do-it planet. And Libra wants balance and harmony. And so in a funny way, even though Libra does want the good life very much, there's like I don't know, it's like the energy of Jupiter can be a little maybe rattling. But in this, Libra makes peace with it. There's a truce and it's like, OK, all right, I'm going to allow myself to believe in this giant life, OK? 

Saeed Jones: Wow. 

Michelle Tea: I'm going to let myself believe in this giant life. I’m going to make peace with the parts of my mind — because it's a mental card, it's the swords — that are saying, like, “That's too crazy. I can't do that. Life can't, What am I, living in a fairytale?” It kind of has that kind of energy to it. And also if there’s any kind of doubts that might be lingering or like problems like “How will I solve that dilemma?” You know like “Do I have to move?” Things like that.

Like, it looks like you can — you can figure all of that out. You can work through that in a way that feels really good. And that is not a problem — it's not hard. Because then we have the Princess of cups and she's like, “Let's go!” Like she's like really — she's really free. And she is, she's both emotional and earthy. 

Saeed Jones: I love the card, it’s beautiful.

Michelle Tea: I know, it's a beautiful card of this lady who's got like a swan coming out of her head. She's offering a giant seashell with a turtle in it. There's a lot going on. She's wearing a crystal caftan. She’s really great. 

She's just about being emotionally grounded and able and aware of her emotions. Like her emotions are not a mystery to her, even though she feel - she feels things deeply and powerful - powerfully, she's not swept away by her emotions. She knows herself. And there's something about where you are at this phase in your life of knowing yourself and being emotionally grounded. That's going to allow you from the place that you are now to embark upon this new adventure.

And what an — oh my God — and what a new adventure it is! You have the Fool card. I mean, I love the Fool card.

Saeed Jones: This is so helpful.

Michelle Tea: It’s one of my favorite cards. It is really about — and it’s so good for a Sag — it's about taking that risk that seems kind of daredevil-ish and you’re like, “I don't know what's going to happen, but I just I'm going to … I feel drawn to it. I'm attracted to it. I, I know I won't be fully happy if I don't explore it.” It’s like those sort of things that pull you out of your comfort zone, force you to, you know, push your comfort level and just take a really run risk. 

I mean, that looks really good. I'm into it. And I and I don't think it doesn't look either/or to me. 

Saeed Jones: I love it.

Michelle Tea: It looks like... It looks like yeah, you pursue television writing, you figure it out, you figure out whatever your apprehensions might be and you make peace with them and you work on your poetry book. Now let's see about just hanging out.

Saeed Jones: Right. I feel like cards are doing to be like, “Well, girl.”

Michelle Tea: I know! Totally. I mean, you have the Princess of Disks. I mean, she's not averse to hanging out, you know? She's been through a lot, so. And she's pregnant. So she is hanging out because she's gestating something so as you would be, right?

Oof and then the Priestess, OK, she's hanging out too. She's getting to know herself in a real deep level and sharpening her intuition. Oh, my God and then sun in Sagittarius, how are all of these true for you? This is the Nine of Wands. It's sun in Sagittarius. It's called Strength. 

OK, here's your life plan Saeed. You you hang out for a while, cas-, casually and leisurely working on your book of poetry, right? Casually and leisurely and in a gentle manner, figuring out what your apprehensions might be about following a television path, making peace with them. Casually and gently, putting out feelers. And I think when the time is right, you're going to know and you're going to jump on it and you're going to be that Fool card. 

I can see that there are so many opportunities here for you and it must it must be really dizzying to comprehe- to to just look at them all and try to decide what your next move is. In a funny way, though, I think you can have all of the moves. I think that there is still more incubation time available to you where you … enjoy the feeling of accomplishment that you did just really, you know, accomplish something really major with your memoir.

And there’s more. I mean with the High Priestess in in you're like, what is it like if I chill out for a minute? It's like more information is being — it's coming within you. It's like more is being revealed. Like there are more poems that are are building in you. There's more opportunity that's kind of coalescing around you. So you can chill out for a while. And I just feel like you have really good instinct cards here. Like The Priestess is a heavy instinct card. This Three of Wands is very much about you, like you're following your energy. And then the Fool card is all instinct. 

Saeed Jones: All instinct.

Michelle Tea: Yeah. So I feel like, yeah, you're going to chill out, you're going to work on your poems and then you are going to be responsive towards the television opportunities. And then when you feel it really growing and you like it's time, it's time to strike, you're going to jump on it. Yeah. You’re gonna do it.

Saeed Jones: I love this because so much of what I feel like I'm I'm hearing is, you know, to talk about, like moving to Ohio, it was like, “I need to create a quality of life that is not so frantic, you know, and not so scarcity or like kind of like survival-driven as things kinda to have to be, you know, in a city like New York” where you're like you've got to — everything has to work, you know what I mean? 

And so yeah! I love this. I love the idea of, you know, this this energy and this pace, that I've been able to cultivate by making this life move, maybe is allowing me to open up to different options. That's exciting. 

Michelle Tea: It is exciting. And I love this idea of like, you know … I dont know, like creative artistic success and the process of that doesn’t need to be frenetic and urgent and desperate and just clawing. But it’s like “Oh you know, I can just trust that like it’s all coming together, it’s coming towards me.” It’s very Taurus moon. It’s like your Taurus Moon is like “Listen, Sag, we’re gonna do it all. We’re gonna do it all, but we’re just gonna take like the scenic route because life is beautiful,” you know? And there's a lot to enjoy. Yeah.

Saeed Jones: I love that. Oh, Michelle thank you! 

Michelle Tea: You’re very welcome. I’m excited too. I wanna see your TV show and read your poems so I’m psyched!

Saeed Jones: I like it, I like it. 

Michelle Tea: Oh my gosh. Well thank you so much for joining me on Your Magic, it’s been so fun to get to connect with you again and talk to you about all this cool stuff.


[Music]

Edgar Fabián Frias: Hello my name is Edgar Fabián Frias and today I’m doing a find your dream job or jobs spell and I'm hoping it will be a powerful portal for you to connect with yourself and give yourself a moment to imagine, to play, and to connect and to see what emerges. 

OK, so this spell is a powerful portal. It allows you to set the intention to draw life-changing opportunities towards you. It also gives you a moment to dream and envision what kind of life you want to be living and how your job can support you in that goal.

So here are some ingredients for the spell. All of the ingredients are optional. You can have a piece of paper or a journal along with a writing utensil, a planner or your phone's calendar, a bowl of water or a quartz crystal talisman — something that you can hold onto. A candle, a plant ally. 

And you can start by finding a place in your home or out in nature where you can be at peace for about 30 minutes. And, you know, of course, adapt this as you need. 

Once you have this space, let yourself get grounded, spend a few moments creating a sacred space as it makes sense for you. I like to light my candle to begin so I can let the spirits know that I'm available and ready to commune. I also like to commune with a plant ally to support me in shifting my state of awareness and also to ask for their help with the spell that I'm casting. 

So, today I'm going to be working with some henbane flower essence and after this, I like to invoke the five sacred directions and the sacred elements. And I spend some time inviting them into the space along with some energetic support. And that can be from my ancestors, my queer ancestors or trans-cestors, spirit guides. I also like to invite in the fairies, connect to the Earth with the plant kin, whatever feels right in the moment. 

And so when you're ready, pour some water into your bowl or grab whatever it is you're wanting to charge with the intention of this spell. Place this bowl — or whatever object it is — in your hands, and spend a moment getting ready to go into a meditative space. So take a few deep breaths, let yourself feel the weight of your body pulling you down towards the Earth, know that this is a practice, and be gentle with yourself as you slowly become more and more grounded and mindful. When you're ready, take a moment and tap into or invoke the feeling of expecting a big and exciting opportunity to arise in your life. Let yourself fill up with this feeling. Send this emotion into your hands and into the bowl of water or whatever it is that your hands are holding. 

When you're ready, imagine that you get a glimpse around the corner and you get to see yourself living your most authentic, energizing, and fulfilling life. You found your dream job or jobs. You found the answer. Let yourself be open. Imagine the impossible. If you notice any fears or hesitation show up, gently, ask them to step aside for a moment as you focus on expanding, dreaming. 

And when you're ready to come out of this meditative space, do so gently. Placing the bowl of water on your altar or by a nearby tree or plant and spend some time — like 10 minutes — writing, drawing, moving, whatever way helps you process the experience you just had. And if you have a planner with you, see if it makes sense to schedule a few things in your planner that will help you with this vision. 

What does your week, your month, your daily schedule look like in this dream job life? Once you're finished writing or drawing or moving, take a moment and read these words out loud while you're holding the bowl of water, being careful to send this energy into the water, asking for it to hold this dream for you too. And when you finish, you may place the water bowl back on the altar or by the tree, or you can use it to water the tree or a plant. You can offer it to the sun or send it lovingly to your community by flushing it down the drain. Whatever feels right for you to do, honor it. 

Michelle Tea: Oh, I love that so much. Thank you, Edgar Fabián Frias.  Please check out their YouTube channel for more queer mutant magic. 

You know, I feel like we never really stop striving for our dream jobs. Do we? After we achieve a goal, it’s kinda normal to then want a new goal, right? It’s not just Capricorns, all of us are always dreaming of our next big move, wondering what it should be, putting wheels in motion. It’s like in the tarot, you know those accomplished 10s of the minor arcana have to flip back over to the ace again. Everything in the universe is constantly in motion, growing and shifting, and that includes us. We hope this episode has gotten you fantasizing about what your own next act might be.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic.  Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic. You can subscribe to us here on Spotify — just do what you need to do to never miss an episode. Also you can sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and get some more musings from our team of spiritual seekers. And you can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we love hearing from you.

This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Raven Yamamoto. We got production support from Veronica Agard, Kristine Mar, and Vera Blossom. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. And our original theme music is by John Kimbrough. 

Tune in next week for a conversation with Kathryn Hahn. Thanks for listening!