Episode XCVI | Xiran Jay Zhao: Bringing Myth to the Modern World
Xiran Jay Zhao can’t help their fascination with old-world lore. Today we talk to the author about the inspirations behind their new book Zachary Ying and the Dragon Emperor — from the evolution of East Asian spirituality to their visit to the mausoleum of China’s first emperor. Michelle Tea dives deeper into why we love mythical beings worldwide before divining her own imaginary familiar.
Xiran Jay Zhao: What's interesting is that I actually read texts from like 2000 years ago from like the Qing Dynasty. And then they have such detailed descriptions of the the types of ghosts and how to deal with them. Like you're supposed to shoot at them with like a peachwood bow Or you're supposed to like throw dog shit at them to get them to get out. And it's just like the rituals are so elaborate and the descriptions of the ghosts are so vivid that I'm like, I don't think this is made up because, like, why would you make this stuff? Because it's like written in all seriousness, and it just I don't know what I look at that kind of stuff. I'm like, you know, maybe modern day we have lost the ability to sense some things.
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Michelle Tea: Hello, I am Michelle Tea and this is Your Magic. Today I’ll be talking to award-winning, best-selling author Xiran Jay Zhao, whose latest book, Zachary Ying and the Dragon Emperor boasts demons and dragons and a gaming headsets possessed by an ancient tyrant. We’re going to talk about inspiration, history and communal spirituality, and more. After that, I’m going to share a ritual to help you conjure and imaginary friend. No, better than an imaginary friend – an imaginary familiar.
But before we get into the show, I really want to give a very loving shout-out to our Patreon members. You all help us get this thing made every single freaking week, and we love you, and we thought you should know that. If you want to share in the love, check out patreon.com/thisisyourmagic, and get yourself a bunch of bonus workshops and monthly tarotstrology moonscopes, as well as that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you know you’re helping one of your favorite podcasts literally get made.
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Michelle Tea: One of my youthful gateways to magic came via the otherworldly creatures and beasts that populate the mythologies of so many cultures, though in my case it was specifically greco-roman folklore that lured me in, and specifically-specifically the D’Aulaires Book of Greek Myths. To know these iconic illustrations is to be enchanted by them, as well as haunted. I will never unsee the drawing of the sea monster rising up from the waters to gobble Andromeda – it looks like a big potato, with beady yet long-lashed lips and a sensuous, human mouth. What the fuck. The image is literally seared into my psyche so, well done. There is the Hydra, a super-extra-snake; Cerberus, the three-headed hound guarding the gates of the underworld; the Sphinx, that sexy, lady-faced beast, cool as a cucumber with a head full of riddles and a murderous apetite. Party-animal Pan skipping about on his hooves, tooting a flute. Those early feminists, the snake-headed Gorgons. As much as I was delighted by goth Persephone, and foamy Aphrodite, lightening-flinging Zeus and light-in-his-winged-loafers Hermes, for me, the beasts took the imaginative possibilities to the next level.
Why do we humans feel the need to create these otherworldly beasitaries? Because we all do, all of us, on every continent. Never mind the Leprachauns, Ireland has the fairy people and the wailing, death-rock Banshee, and the snouted, red-clad Far Darrigs. Japan gave the world the Ushi-Oni, a spidery sea monster with the head of a buffalo; the kasa-obake, which are a bunch of haunted, animated umbrellas, and the Akaname, who love to clean a dirty bathroom. With their tongues. They are welcome at my place anytime.
We North Americans are familiar with the ghostly, tormented La Llorona, of Mexico, as well as the region’s livestock chomping Chupacabra. China has the bloodthirsty giant Xing Tian, who simply grew a face on his torso after his head was decapitated in battle. There are the Arab elemental shape-shifters the Jinn, and the leaf-wearing African Eloko, who will eat you. Of course, I’m only scratching the surface. While the cryptid du jour maybe be the high femme Unicorn, who know, maybe their reign is destined to be usurped by a buff Filipino Tikbalang - horsey head, horsey limbs, Jon Cena body.
All of these mythical critters come charged with centuries of storytelling - the ancient spoken words, the written and drawn characters. They are infused with fear and wonder, sadness and thrill. They all possess interesting powers, and characteristics that lend themselves easily to metaphor. They feel perfect for involving during magical rites, for a hit of imaginative, animal oomph.
Here’s Xiran.
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Michelle Tea: Xiran. Thank you so much for being on your magic.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Oh, thank you for inviting me.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, you write about magic. I mean, you have magic in your work, and it makes me really want to know, like, what's your relationship to magic off of the page, like, in your in your daily life, if you will?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Um, so unfortunately not that much, but mainly I think I didn't really believe in it in any like spirituality or magic stuff until I met a bunch of Southeast Asian friends. And then the stories they tell me, just like I cannot doubt them.
Michelle Tea: Really? Like what kind of what kind of stories are you hearing?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Just like they regularly see, just like ghosts and stuff and all kinds of, like, creatures. And it's, like, so haunted over there. And just like, I cannot doubt it. In China, we kind of grew up very atheist because just because it was the government doctrine the Chinese government, like they banned, like spirituality and that kind of stuff. So like most people are really non spiritual. Most people are pretty atheist. But still, like sometimes we go to the temple and we pray to God, but I don't know if anybody actually like believes in the gods, but like spirituality is not very strong in China. But then I hear stories from my friends in like Southeast Asia where like spirituality is much stronger and yeah, just like I can't doubt them. So now I like, I believe there's like magic in Southeast Asia. I don't know if there's any magic in China or like North America, but we'll see.
Michelle Tea: It's so interesting. You know, I feel like obviously not everybody has a drive to be spiritual, but like, I feel like a lot of people do have it. And so it is one of the human drives. And so I wonder about like in a culture like China, where the government is outlawing spirituality, are there sort of underground spiritual, spiritual, mystical things happening.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Well for sure. There's the whole like following going, right? And they call that a called cult which, but they practice a sort of spirituality. But the conflict is a little bit complicated because like the following go are not like all innocent either, because like the cult is kind of shady. Like the cult founder. Um, he's shady. Yeah, but also, they probably shouldn't be persecuted to like death by the government for just, like, believing things. So it's a complicated situation, and I do feel like spirituality requires a more communal aspect to like really be strong. So in North America, I believe that like I have heard that like Native American communities, they experience a lot more spirituality than, you know, the regular like white settlers. And I feel like in places like New Orleans, Louisiana, for example, probably there is just this like aura of spirituality that is much stronger than other places.
Michelle Tea: There really is. What do you know about your astrological make up both your Western and your Chinese astrology.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Oh, my God. I don't know. Because I have two birthdays, there's a government official one and a fake one that my parents put on my birth certificate because they wanted me to get into school one year earlier. But I think legally I am a Virgo, but in actuality, I am a Libra.
Michelle Tea: Wow so you’re a legal Virgo?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Yeah.
Michelle Tea: But a true Libra.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Yeah, but I think, like, my personality is closest to Scorpio. Like, can you identify as a Scorpio?
Michelle Tea: Sure. And you know something? There's so much going on in any one astrological chart like you very much might have other things in Scorpio. So yeah. I mean, if you're feeling a big Scorpio pull, it's probably true to something in your makeup.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Yeah. I truly do feel? I like I identify as a Scorpio because I don’t feel any connection to Virgo or Libra.
Michelle Tea: Really? What about Scorpio feels more accurate for you?
Xiran Jay Zhao: I don't know. I think just like the vindictiveness. I love pissing off people who have wronged me. Like those people, like before I was published, and they were like assholes to me. And now I'm just like, Oh, I hope you see, like, all that I am achieving. I hope you are, like, hoping and seething.
Michelle Tea: Oh, my God, that is very Scorpio. As a matter of fact, I love that. I mean, living well, it's the best revenge success. It's number one.
Xiran Jay Zhao: I know! That is the revenge I get. I don't actively go out and get vengeance on people. I just know that there are people out there who hate my guts, but still they have to, like, see me just like rising higher and higher in my career. And I just know they hate it.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. Oh, my God. I really want to ask you about what inspiration feels like to you.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere. But the thing is that when inspiration comes to me, it kind of like rips me and I can't do anything else until I get it down. And I definitely feel like it's coming from somewhere else.
Michelle Tea: Where do you think it's coming from? Do you ever have you ever thought about it?
Xiran Jay Zhao: I don't know. Probably like it's some kind of, like, muse. Like, some people believe that, like there are just these stories out there, and then if you don't grab on to it, then someone else is going to. And then that just that makes me freak out because like, that's my number one fear that I would like work on something. And then just before I submit it, I discover that someone else got a book deal with the exact same plot. That's my number one nightmare.
Michelle Tea: I was just thinking about how you write characters that are based on historical figures who like really existed in history. And I'm just wondering if you ever felt like a closeness to their energy or like like you were channeling them or like they were around you.
Xiran Jay Zhao: So I visited the tomb of the first or the mausoleum of the First Emperor of China. And then he is like the costar of my book, Zachary Ying and the Dragon Emperor that just came out. And then when I was in his mausoleum, I went down this like small hidden path and suddenly everything got like so cold and I was like, Whoa, what is going on over here? And I definitely felt like there was like some kind of, like, unearthly energy there in the mausoleum. And I was just like, walking along for this gigantic stretch. And it was it was so cold. And in Chinese culture, we do believe that, like, coldness is more associated with, like, the underworld and stuff. So, yeah, the coldness just freaked me out a little bit.
Michelle Tea: Where where does the like the Chinese belief in an underworld, does it come from, like a spiritual, like, mythology that preexisted the governments ban on spirituality?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Well, for sure it preexisted for, like a thousand, like thousands of years. And even now, I think Chinese people still pretty strongly believe and believe in reincarnation. I think I believe in reincarnation just because, you know, even though it doesn't make scientific sense, it makes sense in my head. I'm just like, yeah, of course, reincarnation is real. And yeah, for thousands of years, Chinese people have believe in this like underworld and ghosts. And what's interesting is that I actually read texts from my 2000 years ago from like the Qing Dynasty, and now they have such detailed descriptions of sort of like the types of ghosts and how to deal with them. Like you're supposed to shoot at them with like a peachwood bow or you're supposed to like throw dog shit at them to get them to go get out. And it's just like the rituals are so elaborate and the descriptions of the ghosts are so vivid that I'm like, I don't think this is made up because, like, why would you make this stuff? Because it's like written in all seriousness, and it just I don't know what I look at that kind of stuff. I'm like, you know, maybe modern day we have lost the ability to sense some things.
Michelle Tea: I think that that could be completely true. If you could have one, like, mythological creature actually be real? Which one would you pick?
Xiran Jay Zhao: I think I would like a Chinese dragon, because, like, Chinese dragons are not vicious. They're just there to bring water and, like, control storms and stuff. So it'll be nice to have some control over the weather.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Have you ever had a tarot reading?
Xiran Jay Zhao: I have not.
Michelle Tea: I have a deck of cards right here. I'll read your tarot cards.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Okay. Okay. Oh, my God.
Michelle Tea: If you have something that you'd like to know about, they're really helpful if you're deciding between, like, multiple options or multiple different paths, or if you're like, what's the energy around that thing? Like, these are all ways of using the cards that can be illuminating.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Okay. Should I move to Europe?
Michelle Tea: Perfect. Oh, my God. That's perfect. Where are you right now?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Vancouver, Canada.
Michelle Tea: Okay, cool. So you're in Vancouver. So what I'll ask the tarot is what does it look like if you move to New York? Would you be.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Europe, not your New York.
Michelle Tea: I'm sorry, not New York. What would it look like? So what I'm going to ask the tarot is what would it look like for you if you moved to Europe? What part of Europe? Are you looking at a certain area, certain country?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Probably either northern Italy or southern France.
Michelle Tea: Wow. Okay, very cool. Is there a particular are there towns or cities that you feel especially drawn towards?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Um, you know, I like Venice, but I don't know if I would want to live there, so I'll probably have to do more research about this. But yeah, basically I am tired of the new world. I want to go back to the old world.
Michelle Tea: Okay. My gosh, I love that. My final shuffle. I have. No. I'm so sorry. I really want it to be a yes. Your very first card is the death card.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Oh, my God.
Michelle Tea: Not necessarily a bad card, right? I mean, death in the tarot is really a metaphor for transformation. And often when the card comes up, it means that there's one of yourselves is dying like a piece. There's a piece of yourself that can be left in the past. You know, if you just think that we're always, like, growing and we're always morphing into new people, but sometimes we carry, like, old habits around with us from the past. It's very psychological, so it's not necessarily bad. It can actually be really incredible. But the cards that you have with it don't inspire me. The very first one is the Princess of Cups. So this is a court card. You know, it's very much like a deck of playing cards. It's like one through ten with the four suits. And then there's like the court cards. So court cards just aren't, you know, if if tarot cards have worth the major arcana like the death card, they're the strongest in the court cards. The people are like the weakest. So to get a big, strong vibe, like like the death card, I want a lot more information around that. And so to have the tarot spit out a little piddly princess of cups at me, I just feel like it's not enough. You know, she is a very sweet card. She is open, she's open-hearted. She is really in touch with her emotions. She's not she's not controlled by them. She is gentle with herself. It's a really lovely card. So I was like, okay, then your last card is this guy here, this prince of Swords. He, you know, he's in this chariot. The chariot wants to move forward, but it's being pulled by these little weaklings. They cannot pull his chariot. To his credit, he's recognized it. He has a sword. He's ready to slice through the reins and try something different. But this is a card of frustration. So there's just you know, and one thing I really want to say about tarot is it's all about timing. Like this does not mean that it is your destiny to never live in Europe. Absolutely not. If it's in your heart to live in Europe, then I believe you should and you will live in Europe. But is that something you should be working towards right now? No, you shouldn't. For some strange reason, you should not be working towards it right now. It's not. I would say it's a no. Are there other places? Are you feeling a little stir crazy in Vancouver? Are you just wanting to.
Xiran Jay Zhao: New York actually, I have had some thoughts about moving to New York, but probably I will do like an extended vacation and all these places first before I like decide to move. But also I don't like even if I move to a place I don't have to like stay there. I am fully mobile. I don't need to like settle down for work or anything.
Michelle Tea: One of the beautiful gifts of being a writer. Yeah. And, you know, and we're never stuck anyway, you know, we can always make new choices and change our fortune and our future. So I'm shuffling right now. It's so funny that you say New York because I, you know, did that flub when I was like, should you move to New York? And you had just said Europe? And I was thinking Europe, but I was saying New York. So it was very strange. So is New York calling to you or should you investigate? What would it look like if you started investigating and opening your mind towards living for a bit in New York? I get to say I always want to go to Europe and then I end up going to New York instead, and I'm like, Oh, this is just as good. This is just as good, if not better. It’s the best city in the world. Oh, Sharon, you've got to live in New York is calling you. You got the emperor. You got the princess of discs.
Xiran Jay Zhao: What the hell?
Michelle Tea: She is a good one. And then you got the fool. And that is what I'm really the most happy about these two major arcana cards, because they're majors. We love the majors, but also they they support each other in such a great way. I mean, the emperor is sort of like he's like the king. And I don't know, I'm just thinking, like, here you are kind of at the top of your game.You could go into New York and, like, it just seems like the city would roll itself out for you. Like, you would feel like you're you're just so alive in that town, and there's so much opportunity available to you in that town for you just to grab a hold of. It's just such a strong card of like leadership and success and energy and activity. The full card. He's just jumping off the cliff. You don't know what the hell he's doing. He's like, I just you know, this is a guy who moved to New York because he's just, like packed a knapsack and hopped on a Greyhound bus and he's just going to, like, arrive there and, like, figure it out. You know, it's that kind of energy, but it's also wonderful energy for relocating because it's a sort of like, I trust the universe. I'm just going to have an adventure and I just trust the universe is going to catch me and break my fall. And I'm just, you know, on the path I'm meant to be on. So he's very spontaneous and trusting. But then you also are backed up by the emperor who's like established and has it together. So it's a really great it's a great combo. You know, in New York can be a hard city to move to, but it will not be hard for you is what I'm seeing and also princess of disks. So I just talked a little bit of shit about the court cards, but I like her popping up between two major arcana and she's telling a good story here. The Princess of Disks. She's Earth, and I like an Earth. I like to see Earth in a relocation reading because you're moving to a different part of the earth. You want to see, can I ground here? What would I look like sitting on this part of the planet? The Princess of Disks has been through a lot. You see this tangle of trees behind her. She's had a fucking journey and now she's pregnant. So it's this idea. It's this idea of like, wow, like you, you know, you are hardy. You are you have survived a lot. And now you have like a new thing to kind of give birth to in the world. You have a new thing that's going to be born of, you know, like a particularly trying path that you've been on. So I don't know if you have a particular, you know, project that you imagined digging into in New York. I wouldn't be surprised if you're hit by a very specific muse while you're in that city with that energy. But it looks really good for you. It looks really lovely.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Okay. So definitely don't move to Europe.
Michelle Tea: Don't move to Europe. Don't move to Europe. Do you want to pull cards on, like what it looks like just to remain in Vancouver? Or you're just like, I know what that looks like. I don't know.
Xiran Jay Zhao: Okay, sure, yeah. What would it be like to remain in Vancouver.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. What does it look like for you to just stay there for now? Okay. That's my last little shuffle for you. It's definitely not bad. It's way better than Europe. It's definitely not bad. You have the Knight of Cups. You're your family. Is your family there?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Yes.
Michelle Tea: Yes. Okay. I mean, this is like a cancer and cancer really rules family. So there's just like a lot of love for you there. There's a lot of, like, emotional stability that's there for you. It seems like maybe the city itself loves you or you love it. There's just like a there's a lovely exchange of energy. But at the same time, then you have the four of cups, which is luxury, and it's like, well, everything looks really nice, right? And this these four cups, they look very pretty, but the water's choppy. So there is this sense of like, I don't know, you know, knowing that, like, your family's there and you've been there for a while. I’m guessing.
Xiran Jay Zhao: A long while.
Michelle Tea: A long while. That's what I thought. So, you know, I think the danger here, the choppy water, isn't that like suddenly your life in Vancouver is going to fall apart? It's probably more like you're just going to get so bored and just like, find yourself at the end of your rope just needing a break or needing a change. You also, though, have the ace of cups, which is about a new a new beginning, a new connection. So what I think looking at these two together, the four of cups with it's a bit of a warning and then this beautiful ace of cups, I think that if you did stay in Vancouver, you need to do something to change it up. You need to do something to like, you know, like you need to renew your vows, you know, to to Vancouver, something that kind of makes it feel a little bit different or a little bit renewed to you. I mean, we've all been locked up for so long. Just getting to leave the house feels like we're in a whole new city is probably a little bit, but it's like if you do stay there, I'm just seeing this as like, you really need to commit to it in a different way to make it to make it more emotionally exciting for you to be there. Does that make sense?
Xiran Jay Zhao: Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I feel like that is true because, you know, I feel like I've gotten everything that I've I could out of Vancouver is basically it's like a retirement city, but I’m definitely not ready to retire.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Okay, so, obviously we all know what a familiar is, our special animal friends who hang about and add their wild vibe to our lives and our magic. And we are familiar with the concept of the imaginary friend, right? Apparently, I had such a bestie when I was quite young. I have no recollection, but my mother recalls Rufus and I being quite close. But what about an imaginary familiar? Inspired by Xiran’s dragon to think about mythical beasts really inspired me to see if I could use tarot to divine who my special monster might be.
The hardest part of this challenge – which I dare you to try along with me – is narrowing down your beasts. There are so many! I’m going to start by asking the tarot if my imaginary familiar is an earth creature, a water spirit, a fire-adjacent beast or an airborne creature. I’m using the Marseille Tarot for this because we’ll be looking at the minor arcana, and it’s the simple, pared-down illustrations really fit my purpose. Plus, I think it was made during a time when people still actually believed in these mythical creatures!
Shuffling and asking, what element does my imaginary familiar belong to, I then draw from the top, discarding any major arcana. I pick the three of wands. Fire!
My next challenge is to try to come up with 10 mythical creatures associated with fire. The mythical fire-dwelling salamander – which, predates Harry Potter by hundreds of years – is one. The Phoenix bird of Greek mythology. Your classic fire-breathing dragon. Okay, what else? The Devil! Famously lives in a fiery hell. Ooooh the Chimera is a lady-beast with the behind of a dragon but the front of a lion and the mid-section of a goat, and she breathes fire. I’m halfway there! There’s the Huma bird, the Phoenix’s Persian cousin. The really lovely Japanese Kirin is part dragon, part deer and yes breathes fire. Three more to go. The Mboitata, from indiginous Brazilian folklore, is a snake made of pure fire with a hundred eyes on its back. Jinns are also said to be made of fire, so they’re invited to the party. Finally, we will end with the Chilean Cherufe, a man-eating monster made of crystals and lava. Impressive.
I’m numbering my fire creatures one to ten in the order I listed them. Now I shuffle, asking the deck who is best suited to be my imaginary elemental.
It’s fun to keep picking through the cards, looking for a wands - the suspense grows! And finally, I have one - the four of wands! What was my number three again? Omg - The Devil! Totally figures! Actually, I’m doing this reading on the fiery Sagittarius Full Moon, and this morning when I gave myself a proper tarot reading, it had said that I need to channel The Devil to bring balance into my life. If you can believe that. I guess my altar is about to get especially Satanic. Once you learn your familiar, have some fun learning more about them, give them some space on your alter, channel some of their more helpful qualities during meditation.
I invite you all to try this playful reading, and if you do, please share with us who your new imaginary familiar is. I’m dying to know!
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Michelle Tea: That’s our show. I hope we stimulated some part of your mind and spirit that likes fantasy and animals, make-believe and mythology. The history of human imagination is infinite, so full of inspiration for inventive ways to engage with our occasionally too-real modern lives. Set your inner baby witch loose on a pegasus or something.
Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. You can support us — plus get access to a whole bunch of bonus content — at patreon.com/thisisyourmagic. Thank you to those who support us — every dollar makes our work possible . Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic and subscribe to our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com. Join the Your Magic community on Discord at the link in the show notes. You can rate us and subscribe right here on Spotify — do what you need to do to never miss an episode. You can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you.
Your Magic is Ben Cooley, me Michelle Tea, Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, Vera Blossom, and our production intern Kirsten Osei-Bonsu. And our original theme music is by John Kimbrough. Thanks for listening!