Alexander Chee: Spells Gone Awry
This week, author Alexander Chee tells us all about being a teen witch, how to cancel a spell, and more. Then we investigate emoji spells, taking it all the way back to ancient Egypt.
Alexander Chee: What I remember is having this confrontation with these two figures. And what my friends remember is me going into some kind of trance and talking to them in a voice that was not my voice about Tiamat the Queen of the Dragons who lived underneath the ocean.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: This is Your Magic, a Spotify Original from Parcast Studios and Your Magic Media. I’m Michelle Tea.
Today on the program, we’re going to talk to author Alexander Chee, former clairvoyant child, former teen witch and current celebrated author of, most recently, How to Write an Autobiographical Novel (which is amazing).
After that, we have an irreverent and handy spell from Marcella Kroll, the Los Angeles-based host of the Saved by the Spell podcast.
And finally, we’ll join our producer Kristine Mar as she investigates the trend of using emojis to make magic and finds that the root of these text-message rituals are much more ancient than we’d guess.
Stay with us.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Spells. When I was a teenage witch I loved making these charm bags. There were these little satin pouches you could get at witch stores, and I would stuff them with herbs and crystals and sink my intentions into them. I really loved making pouches for love — I would take a pink satin bag, some dried rose buds, a rose quartz, and I would add some drops of this intensely floral “love oil.” Love seemed like the biggest, most alluring mystery, like it could open up a whole other part of yourself, and of the world. Being magic, it seemed like love would respond to magic.
And my love spells worked. My first pouch brought me David. David, who called everyone “girl” all the time — like, “Hey, girl,” and so wound up being called Girl by everyone. Girl told me I was better than Barbra Streisand. Which was not much of a compliment to a sixteen-year-old goth, but David loved Barbra Streisand. I felt the power of love magic falling into blissful makeouts with Girl, magic that would end suddenly and sharply. Bye, Girl.
My second pouch brought me Perry, who had the role of Dr. Frank N. Furter at The Rocky Horror Picture Show in Harvard Square. My crush was stoked with hours of watching Perry prance and cavort in a corset and garters, flicking his heavily augmented eyebrows, snapping his gloves, and curling his lips as he lip-synched to “Sweet Transvestite.”
In case you’re not getting it, the boyfriends my love pouches were calling to me were G-A-Y gay. Maybe it was because I was gay, or queer or whatever, but I didn’t really know that yet about myself. But honestly, I think it was because my pouches were pink.
Intention counts for a lot in spell work. But magic has a history, too. For hundreds of years, spell-casters have agreed that red is the color of romantic love. Sixteen years old, I wasn’t using red for my love spells. It was a little too hot for me, to be honest. I used pink for my spells, the color of friendly love. And it brought me a couple of very sweet, very gay boyfriends. No regrets.
Now, let’s move onto our very special guest — basically my dream 1980s teenage gay boyfriend, if you will — the award-winning and beloved author Alexander Chee.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Hello, Alexander. Thanks for being on Your Magic!
So I just want to ask you front and center, are you a witch?
Alexander Chee: I felt witchy as a child, certainly. It feels like a weird thing to aspire to in one way, but I think that's possibly like just like about growing up in Maine and that kind of Calvinist like who are you to think you could be anything except a piece of trash, you know, like.
Michelle Tea: Oh my gosh.
Alexander Chee: Earlier this week, I was doing a kind of a tarot demo, I guess, for this for Korean Literature Now, which is a Korean literary group that promotes cross-cultural exchange between Korean writers and American writers and Korean-American writers. And I was showing them this this card trick that had been first shown to me by the parapsychologist who tested me for clairvoyance when I was a child and for which I tested positive. [00:04:14] The way it works is that you think of a card, you run your fingers alongside the deck and then you open up the deck when you think you've arrived at the card. I had been thinking of the Queen of Cups. I did not say it out loud to them because I was sort of. I was sort of thinking, well, what if I don't like what if I don't get it right and it's some sort of ego thing kept me from announcing the card, but then I got it right. And then I burst out laughing and then I had to explain why, which was a little only a little bit embarrassing.
Michelle Tea: Did you feel before you were tested to see if you were clairvoyant? Had you felt that you were clairvoyant as a child?
Alexander Chee: I I had and I hoped that I was. I certainly had aspirations.
Michelle Tea: Sure.
Alexander Chee: To be like, you know, to be like Jean Gray in the X-Men or or basically like any of the… I also really I really wanted Pyro Kinesis. I really wanted.. Like I read Firestarter.
Michelle Tea: Yes Firestarter. So formative. Oh my gosh. That's when someone you just light things on fire with your mind, right?
Alexander Chee: Yes.
Michelle Tea: So when you were when you were tested positive for clairvoyance as a child, did your life change after that? Or how... It must have changed somehow, at least internally?
Alexander Chee: Kids made fun of me a lot.
Michelle Tea: Are you kidding me? God kids are so basic.
Alexander Chee: Because it's Maine.
Michelle Tea: Because it’s Maine. I know you know I also grew up in a very hostile and punishing New England environment so I get it.
Alexander Chee: I seriously wanted it to be kind of like the X-Men. I was like, when does Professor X show up asking me to join? You know.
Michelle Tea: Right.
Alexander Chee: But instead they were all kind of afraid of me. That was like they sort of it's that thing of being able to know something that other people don't know how you know it, that they fear, you know.
Michelle Tea: Which makes me think also like just, you know, anyone who's an outsider, which by virtue of being Korean and gay in Maine, I'm guessing you were as a kid. Like you do know things that other people don't know, you know, and you do have a power. So it's like it blends so well this desire to also have, like, more tangible powers that you can actually enact.
Alexander Chee: I think, you know, I also with some time I have realized that when you are a kid and you don't have control over your circumstances, you want to be bigger than your fears somehow. You want to be able to throw a car across the street when you're pissed or all these kinds of childish expressions of your rage. But I did I did start reading up on... It was sort of like I began with myths and then I gradually moved towards the occult.
We had this amazing town librarian who was who was so kind to me in letting me, like, check out books that I had no business checking out.
Michelle Tea: God bless them.
Alexander Chee: Being like the age that I was. It was The Golden Bough. You know it was an anthropological work on magic for those that don’t know that drew from many different cultures. And it was an attempt to try to try to look at all of those different influences on our ideas of what magic is and how it works. I was hoping it was a spell book. I really want like, I was like, when do I find the instruction? You know. But then I started playing D&D.
Michelle Tea: Total gateway.
Alexander Chee: And then that group of people I played D&D with eventually became like a kind of experimental coven.
Michelle Tea: Really? How old were you at this point?
Alexander Chee: I was let's see driving age, I was like 16.
Michelle Tea: OK, yeah.
Alexander Chee: At that point.
Michelle Tea: And so my guess is your was your D&D crowd like also sort of misfit kids.
Alexander Chee: It was misfit kids and a couple of slightly older misfit adults who were, who were very into the occult as well as D&D and who sort of had the idea of of us possibly becoming a coven and they were like, oh, you you are definitely a sender, and I was like, what is a sender?
And they said I was very good at projecting my thoughts to others so that other people knew what I was feeling or thinking without me having to tell them.
Michelle Tea: I have to ask, like, what were you and your teen witch coven doing? Like what kind of activities did you guys do besides Dungeons and Dragons?
Alexander Chee: I think the weirdest thing we tried to do was we tried to do an exorcism under a bridge in Portland where somebody had been killing cats.
We were doing some kind of spell. There was a fire. This was the thing that, like kind of it was very difficult for the group to contain because I think it was all kind of fun and games as long as like nothing conclusive ever really happened, you know. But what I remember is sort of like having this confrontation with these two figures. And what my friends remember is me going into some kind of trance and talking to them in a voice that was not my voice.
Michelle Tea: Whoa.
Alexander Chee: About Tiamat the Queen of the Dragons who lived underneath the ocean.
Michelle Tea: Wait, what?
Alexander Chee: That was what we were up to.
Michelle Tea: That's a very ambitious undertaking for teen witches. It's not like… I was doing little dumb love potions in my bedroom, but like an exorcism of a cat killing energy is like really big. How did you feel afterwards?
Alexander Chee: You know what's hilarious is that I was not put, I was not put off. And I remember one of our sort of coven leaders was a husband and wife saying, well, you know, you are the sensitive one. So it makes sense. And I just, I remember thinking, like, that's so unfair that I'm a sensitive one, so I'm the one the spirits chose. But. But then I started getting interested in that.
Michelle Tea: Yeah.
Alexander Chee: You know, and trying to figure out, like, not so much like what there was to do with it, but like, you know, I certainly got interested in like kinds of psychic protection and.
Michelle Tea: Yeah.
I wanted to ask if in your magic practices, have you ever had a special kind of go sideways on you?
Alexander Chee: Yes. I had a, I had gone through a breakup that was really traumatic for me. But I think it was possibly that I experienced it as like a... I experienced it as a projection of some other loss, like maybe suppressed grief from my father's death or something. And I didn't understand why, why it had happened and he wouldn't really explain. And so I cast a spell on him to bring him back. And it kind of worked in a strange way where but I felt like he also didn't understand why he was coming back to me and that was so humiliating, that I was like, I must cancel this spell immediately.
Michelle Tea: Oh no, did you cancel it?
Alexander Chee: I was like, wow, this should not. This is just not like the right use of...
Michelle Tea: It's like the pet cemetery of love affairs.
Alexander Chee: Yes.
Michelle Tea: It comes back undead and you're like, it smells funny. What's wrong with it?
Alexander Chee: What's wrong with Tabby? Yeah..
Michelle Tea: How did you cancel it? I'm sure this is something everyone needs to know how to cancel the love spell you wish you hadn't made.
Alexander Chee: I, I think you. Oh, there was I remember. There was with the instructions are also instructions on how to like if such and such was disturbed, then the spell would, the spell would break and I was like.
Michelle Tea: Disturbed that shit yes.
Alexander Chee: And like.
Michelle Tea: Oh my god.
Alexander Chee: Disturb that shit. Yeah. It was about the arrangement of the elements of the of the spell. And so once you once that was disturbed, then the spell was also disturbed, which when you think about it is a really shitty basis for a relationship.
Michelle Tea: Right. A fragile spell. Totally. I mean, you know, there's this whole thing are like love spells even consensual. Right? It's like. Can you...
Alexander Chee: Oh, I had not thought about that, but that is... Yeah.
Michelle Tea: I hadn't either, but you know what to think about it, Alexander Chee, when we were together teaching at the Tin House Summer Workshop a few years back, staying in the dormitories at Reed College in Portland, Oregon, there was a poster left in the hallway from when the students were living there, and it was this big warning and it was like love spells and love potions are not consensual. So, [00:39:43]it was everything. It was like totally hilarious and also totally legitimate. And I was like, oh my god, I love this. This is so like protecting — consent culture, body, mind, spirit, you know, like...
Alexander Chee: I love it too. That is that's fantastic.
Michelle Tea: It was really great.
Alexander Chee: It is so Reed.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: I’m glad you’re excited and not having a flashback to to tormented witch youth, so yeah, I'd love to read your cards. May I?
Alexander Chee: Please do.
Michelle Tea: Do you have what you'd like some insight into?
Alexander Chee: I do feel a little adrift in terms of like trying to figure out, I have like all these different book projects that I want to work on, but trying to find my way into the one. It's been a little chaotic right now with all this teaching that I'm doing. And then also the the political stuff and...
Michelle Tea: There's a lot weighing on our creative spirits right now, let's see, how about, so is it, is it that you have a few different ideas and you're just not sure which is the one?
Alexander Chee: Yeah.
Michelle Tea: Let's pull on different, on different ideas. What about that?
Alexander Chee: OK.
Michelle Tea: That sounds like it would be helpful. OK, so idea number one, whatever it is, give it a nickname.
Alexander Chee: I'll give them code names. How about that?
Michelle Tea: OK. OK.
Alexander Chee: So the code name for this one is Gay Table.
Michelle Tea: Gay Table. OK. Oh, it's very evocative. So what does the road toward the Gay Table book look like? OK. Put your Gay Table cards down on my gay desk. All right.
What what is the what's your next project?
Alexander Chee: That code name will be Longing.
Michelle Tea: Wow, that is so succinct and yet has such room. I can imagine an entire essay collection built around themes of longing. Is there a third possibility in the mix?
Alexander Chee: There's two more.
Michelle Tea: Oh, great, oh, I love it. I love it. What the next one?
Alexander Chee: Red Leaf.
Michelle Tea: Red Leaf. OK. And what is our last one?
Alexander Chee: Last one code name is Two Boy Army.
Michelle Tea: Two Boy Army. All right.
All right, let's start with Gay Table. Gay Table has given us the Queen of Swords. There she is up there-
Alexander Chee: Ooh.
Michelle Tea: On her throne of clouds, looking down. She's a real editor. And then the Lust card. So as the Leo card is an intensely creative card, very passionate card. And then we have Luxury Four of Cups, which is moon in Cancer. I struggle with this card a little bit with this deck because it's a clearly it's a beautiful card, if you could see it listeners. It's golden cups in a healthy pink lotus and water that looks like sunlight. It's very pretty, but there's waves on the on the bottom. So there's this sense that it looks really nice now, but the water's choppy and it could all fall down. So. All right, that's interesting. We can look back at that.
Let's see. The next one was Longing. Wow, Longing. Longing is the Seven of Cups, which is called Debauch in this. And it does seem like an emotion that you can really kind of OD on, which is a kind of this is such an addict-y, there's something addict-y about this card. Right, overdone.
The second card for longing is you've got another seven, you got the Seven of Swords, which is called Futility. This project is not looking that great. There's an excess, there's an edge. And then the Five of Cups Disappointment. Well, I love when the tarot is very frank. It's like, listen, you have a surplus of ideas here, so just cut this one out.
All right, let's move over now to Red Leaf. You get another swords here. Knight of Swords. He's great. He's on his way to write a book for sure, flying through the sky with purpose. And then we get the Ace of Cups, which aces are great for a new project and a lot of emotion to be able to kind of sink into. And and then you have another seven, Seven of Disks, which is the Failure card in this. So it's like a wall gets hit, some sort of wall, whether it's a crisis of confidence or something doesn't go. I mean, you know, here's the thing. I mean, how long does it take you to write a book?
Alexander Chee: I mean, all of these ideas are are, are very old ideas.
Michelle Tea: Uh huh.
Alexander Chee: With maybe one exception.
Michelle Tea: OK. Because I’m like, you know I see something like this where you get these two really pretty cards, this pretty Knight of Swords with, you know, going for it, and then this beautiful, rewarding Ace of Cups. And it's like in the long story of a book project, which is longer than three cards, it's like this could be a hurdle to get past. Right. Although I guess we are asking the cards for a yes or no. So let's see.
And in this one, actually, the this one looks really the the Two Boy Army. You got another ace, you got the Ace of Disks, which is also great because it's very practical and it's about a new opportunity.
Alexander Chee: Oh, yes.
Michelle Tea: This isn't this is a book that's going to get published out in the world. We know that. And so this is like a great, great card for that. And then you get this Science card, Six of Swords, one of the, you know, the best Sword cards. And it's just about, you know, applying your mental capacity in a beautiful and intelligent way. It's a great card for writing. And then you get another six, you get the Six of Disks, which is Success like. And it's again, it's a disk card. So it's material success, but it is a moon card. So there's like an element of, you know, the success is going to be very deeply internal, as well as having a lovely external sort of manifestation as well.
So, yes, this Gay Table book actually looks really good and, you know, this little like Luxury card, it just might feel like you're walking a tightrope emotionally a little bit while you're writing. It just might there might be a sense in your process where you're like, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. Am I really doing it? And again, Two Boy Army. Sure thing. Just like very, very good. I think this will be probably the easiest one for you to write. And will be and will feel very satisfying and have a really good life. But it feels like there's something important to me about this Gay Table book. I think that I mean, you're going to write many more books in your life, so maybe hopefully I've helped you narrow it down a little bit for whatever your next move is. But it seems like the tarot is saying it should be Gay Table or Two Boy Army.
Alexander Chee: Maybe a two-book deal.
Michelle Tea: I like that.
Alexander Chee: Is that what I should ask for?
Michelle Tea: I think you should ask for two-book deal as long as it's a good deal. You know
Alexander Chee: Right.
Michelle Tea: Alexander, it's been so delightful to talk to you and to learn so much more about your your mystical side, which is such a big part of you and your work.
Alexander Chee: I really appreciate getting the chance to talk like this. I almost never do, which seems like a problem. Yeah, I think I need.
Michelle Tea: You need to start a coven.
Alexander Chee: Yeah, I need to work that out.
[Music]
Marcella Kroll: Hey, Marcella here with you today to offer up a shut the fuck up spell. You can utilize this spell for those who are having trouble keeping your name out of their mouth, either they're bored or they're unwilling to kind of process their own stuff, it happens all the time.
The purpose of this spell is not to cause harm, but it is to neutralize any negative energies that are being sent in your direction, whether it's directly or indirectly.
You're going to need a few things. You're going to need a lemon, any lemon will do. You're going to need a knife. You're going to need some sea salt. You're going to need a piece of paper. Nothing big, just a little one. And a freezer bag and some water. So you're going to take your lemon, you're going to cut it in half and then you're going to take half of the lemon and you're going to make a cross through through the lemon, but you're not going to cut it into four quarters, not all the way, you're just going to cut into it about halfway down. In that cross, you are going to open up just a hair so that you can take the piece of paper that you have. On that piece of paper, you're going to write the name of who you would like to shut the fuck up. Roll it up and insert it into the lemon. Go ahead and sprinkle your sea salt on there, and then you're going to put it in your Ziploc bag, fill it up with some water until it's covered. Zip it up and throw it in the back of your freezer.
The salt is just to cleanse and purify anything that has come at you previously and also cleanse the energy of that person, you know. There's some stuff obviously being kicked up for them, you want to just give them a little blessing on their way. Now you leave it in there to do its job for however long you need to. There are a couple of ways to dispose of it. You can take it out of the bag, the frozen part, and you can bury it somewhere. If burying it is not an option, I would say take the whole bag and bring it to a public trash away from home. So that way you can toss it and be done.
There you have it. That is my shut the fuck up quickie kitchen witch spell for you today. Have a good one.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: There you have it — an easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy way to remove your name from the mouths of haters. If you want more Marcella Kroll you can find her on Instagram @marcellakroll — that’s Kroll with a K — and on her podcast, Saved by the Spell.
And if you’re just on the hunt for easy ways to create spells, our producer Kristine Mar has one that is literally at your fingertips. Let’s join her on a trip around the world and back in time as she explores emojis and their place in modern magic.
[Music]
Kristine Mar: I'm Kristine Mar and I'm a producer at Your Magic. And I have never cast a spell.
Michelle Tea: Kristine, why have you never cast a spell, I wonder? Working as you do in a mystical environment.
Kristine Mar: You know. Nothing against spells. It just had never crossed my mind to try one. I think the only time I've ever cast was when I was a teenager watching Harry Potter movies and trying to say, like, wingardium leviosa.
Michelle Tea: I understand if your only personal reference is like when you were living your peak nerd middle school lifestyle with Harry Potter, why you would be like, that's not something I do as an adult. But you did find your way to a much more contemporary real-life spell that involves emojis.
Kristine Mar: Yeah, I actually heard about this from you, Michelle, that you have been seeing people cast emoji spells on Instagram. And I might not know a lot about spells, but I definitely know a lot about the Internet. It seemed like a really good entry point for me to get into spell work.
Michelle Tea: This is so cool. So what what was the first step you took towards casting an emoji spell? What did you do?
Kristine Mar: I slid into some DMs and I met some very tech-savvy witches.
Tyler Mackie: Over a year ago, I got out of like a very long-term relationship and I was feeling like in a sexual slump.
Kristine Mar: I talked to Tyler Mackie, a visual artist, and practicing witch.
Tyler Mackie: I was like commiserating with one of my best friends through text message. I was like, I just like really want to make sure that the next fun connection that I have, I want it to be juicy and nasty. So I wanted to really kind of convey that within the spell. So there was like a dolphin in there. There was the three little water droplets and then the one big water droplet. I really love those ones to convey the idea of like something that's really juicy.
Kristine Mar: I also spoke to Adele Barclay, who's another emoji spell practitioner as well as a poet.
Adele Barclay: I love words, but sometimes you just want to reach for something a little more imagistic that can kind of gesture beyond. And that's maybe a little more up for interpretation. But you can feel the intention behind it. Like, yeah, like, I thought of you and I thought of care and I chose these emojis.
Michelle Tea: Gosh, I love that because I text with my friends all day long and I'm always shooting them a little star or a heart or flowers. And I love thinking that without even realizing it, I was sort of doing these tiny little digital rituals of love for them. Did you learn in your travels anything about the history of emojis?
Kristine Mar: Yeah, I talked to Paul Galloway, who's a collection specialist and emoji expert at the Museum of Modern Art in New York.
Paul Galloway: I remembered in 2016, being in the first Emojicon and included in there was a thing with a witch who was going to cast a spell with emoji. It was a way of trying to channel the intentions that we were having into this kind of pictographic form.
Kristine Mar: Paul told me about the history of symbol-based communication.
Paul Galloway: You can go all the way back to ancient times with the ancient Egyptians and hieroglyphs or any kind of pictographic form of written language. If you look at the dollar bill, there's that pyramid with a little eye on top. These are all symbols that are, on the one hand, completely opaque to most people, but also had a kind of power in their flexibility and I think emoji are really just a digital kind of modern computer-based version of something we've been doing for hundreds and thousands of years.
Michelle Tea: How did emojis become like, the total immersive world that we have today?
Kristine Mar: Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about is the human instinct to want to communicate in images. And the reason we have emojis is because when phone technology was starting to get off the ground, it didn't have the strength and capacity to send something like a meme. So in order to fill that gap, tech companies started developing smaller images that people could attach to their messages, like smiley faces, little dogs, and users started to really like them. So they kept making more. And we're at the point where we now have more than 3,000 emojis, on most emoji keyboards, and we have technology that's good enough to also send memes. So we really get the best of both worlds.
Michelle Tea: We get everything we can send so many dumb images to each other and make each other laugh all day long, but we can also do witchcraft, I mean, 3,300 emojis? When you were talking to the witches who were actually using these to send spells, did they have like a favorite emoji that they thought had a lot of power?
Kristine Mar: Yeah. Tyler told me about all the ways that you could use a peach.
Tyler Mackie: You can think of an actual peach. You can think of little peachy butt cheeks. You can think about the peach relating to the vulva.
Kristine Mar: And Adele told us about the wave emoji.
Adele Barclay: Thinking about the element of water. And here is like, a wave emoji that I think brings that like intensity.
Michelle Tea: This is what I think is so cool about contemporary witchcraft is that it is a reaction on some level, to, I think, Kristine, the things that you were thinking of when you first started thinking about spells like, oh, no, it's wands and swords. And from days of yore, it feels like very medieval, like the Knights of the Roundtable or something. And then what you actually have are people in our real lives today saying, I want to make some magic. So, you know, as a reaction to that or building upon that, because maybe sometimes, you know, some wands and swords are called for in magic. But in addition to that, now we have emojis, which is so exciting that that magic can be that accessible. I mean, what is more accessible than our cell phones? I mean, they're glued to our damn hands. Our faces are shoved in our screens all the time. We're always bemoaning how we're, like wasting our lives doom-scrolling and everything else, you know, trying to suck dopamine from Instagram. But what if we took our phones and instead we created magic with them? I love that this is a possibility. Did you investigate doing any emoji spells of your own?
Kristine Mar: Yeah, actually, so one thing I learned through all of this was that a spell is not just doing the action, it's also having the intention behind it. My intention today is for everyone who's listening to this to have a really lovely day. And I wrote a spell just for that.
Siri: Candle, hourglass, headphones, honey, pot stew, sprout, butterfly, sparkly heart.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: I like the thought of cell towers being used to ping our rituals around the atmosphere. And I like how handy emoji spells are. As much as I love unearthing obscure ingredients, and having a reason to head out to the occult boutique, at Your Magic we’re devoted to making magic easy, accessible, and fun. Just the other night I was in need of a purifying bath, and I literally grabbed oats and chamomile tea bags from my kitchen, snipped some rosemary from my front yard, and within minutes I was soaking in the simplest DIY spell I’d ever conjured. You’re already a witch, and your home is your best apothecary. We hope you’re inspired to see what magical tools are already at your disposal.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic, subscribe to us right here on Spotify, do what you have to do to stay connected. Sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and get more great content from our team of spiritual seekers. And you can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com. We want to hear from you.
This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Kristine Mar. We got production support from Veronica Agard, Vera Blossom, and Raven Yamamoto. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough.
Join us next week for a conversation with Phoebe Bridgers. Thanks again for listening!