Torrey Peters: Sitting In A Stream, Humming To The Sounds Of The Universe

Sometimes you just have to give into the woo. This week, Detransition, Baby author Torrey Peters joins us to discuss her unlikely spiritual awakening, the eerie history of the Bennington Triangle, and the writer-meets-Hollywood dilemma. After that, Kristine Mar gives us a spell to liberate ourselves from the nine-to-five grind.

Torrey Peters: I started meditating, not for like the spiritual aspects of it, but for like I just need to like, correct my attention span. You start meditating in the woods, you start like picking up on vibes and like just kind of being open with your focus like wide aperture. Like that definitely precipitated like a change in my mind. Like what–what might be in the world and like what might be missing in my ways of seeing the world.

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Michelle Tea: Hello and welcome to Your Magic. I’m Michelle Tea, and today I am SO psyched to be hanging out with author Torrey Peters, whose book Detransition, Baby was easily my favorite book of 2021. We’re going to talk about haunted forests, the limits of empiricism, how to manage opportunities, and more. After that, we get a delightful visit from friend of the pod Kristine Mar, who shares a fantastic spell to help you quit your job. Stay with us.

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Michelle Tea: Okay, so, not to get ahead of my interview with Torrey, but as I mentioned, we do talk about haunted forests. She mentions something I’ve never before heard of – the so-called Bennington Triangle, a rural area of Vermont where a bunch of people went missing in the 40s. Being a native New Englander, I was intrigued by a brand new homeland mystery, so I started poking around on the internet, like you do, and was surprised to find the Bennington Triangle has its own Wikipedia page (I guess what doesn’t have its own Wikipedia page?). 

The first person to go missing in this area was a local, a seasoned hunter with the fabulous name Middie Rivers. He was seventy-four years old, out hunting in the mountains with his buds, something he’d been doing for nearly a century. He knew the region well. He got a bit ahead of his pack and – poof. Gone. Never seen again. Of course there was a big search, but all it turned up was a cartridge from his rifle, in the river. Weird, and sad. This was 1945.

One year later, a Bennington College sophomore named Paula Weldon set off to hike a bit of the Long Trail – this is a single hiking trail that cuts through the entire state of Vermont. This was where Middie went missing, but it seems that the vanished hunter was more of a scratch-your-head enigma, but not the kind of sinister mystery that would keep a lone eighteen-year old woman off a wooded hiking trail. Now, remember, this was 1946, decades before true crime media would warn women away from such locales. I guess in the 40s, nature felt safe and welcoming, and not like the terrain of foreboding and doom it feels like today – or maybe that’s just me. Anyway, Paula Weldon never returned. There was speculation that she took off with a boyfriend, or somehow made a hermit-y life for herself in the woods, living alone for the rest of her days, unfound, like a witchy Thoreau. You know, I wish that this was true, but I kinda doubt it.

Nothing unseemly happened in the area for another two years, when a twenty-six-year-old woman named Betty Fraser met with tragedy. Apparently, Betty liked to drink, a bit more than her husband was comfortable with; he’d lately been concerned about how she was living. On the night of May 5th, 1948, after drinking at a local bar, Betty was last seen walking towards Bennington on the side of the highway; a neighbor reported she seemed to be in a trance. She was found dead one month later, in the forest seventeen miles away. Cause of death was ruled ‘death by misadventure’ – but how did she make it so far, on foot, and more than a little tipsy?

Two years to the day that Paula Weldon vanished, James E. Telford, who lived at the Bennington Soldiers’ Home, vanished. He’d been visiting relatives who had seen him safely onto a bus back to Bennington. Witnesses confirmed he was still on the bus at the stop before Bennington, but when the bus pulled into town, James was gone. His luggage was still onboard, and a bus timetable lingered at his seat, and that was that.

Okay, you guys, the next one is a child, which I hate. I imbibe as much true crime as any female in the year 2022, but it’s real hard for me to think about misfortune striking children, it really is. I usually avoid those ones. Eight-year-old Paul Jepson went on an errand with his mom, to feed their pigs. Mom was gone for about an hour, which frankly feels like a long time to leave your kid alone anywhere but it was a different time, was it not? When Mom came back from feeding the hogs, Paul was gone. It’s said that dogs tracked his scent to the area Bennington student Paula Weldon had vanished four years earlier. 

A couple weeks later, a woman named Frieda Langer was hiking with her cousin, when she slipped and fell into a stream. This is one reason why I don’t go hiking. The other is, mysterious disappearances. Frieda told her hiking companion, her cousin Herbert (people had the best names in the 40s right?) to wait while she ran back to her campsite to change, but Frieda never made it to the campsite. Her body was found half a year later, three miles from where she’d vanished. She was too far gone for a cause of death to be established. 

None of these mysteries have ever been solved, nor have they been officially linked together; it’s only the location that joins them, but that’s enough for me. There are a whole crop of supernatural theories out there attesting to what may have happened to not only these folks, but some 19th century miners who also met with gruesome fates about a hundred years earlier. It seems this area has been a little cursed for a long, long time. New England folklorist and horror author Joseph A. Citro, has written some about the malevolence in these Vermont woods, and is the person who coined the term ‘Bennington Triangle.’ According to his research, the indigenous Algonquin people who lived in the region from 85 BC understood the area as a bad vibes place to be avoided, only went in to bury their dead. One indigenous explanation for its scary energy is that the spot is a place where the four winds are locked in an eternal battle. There is also, according to the New England Historical Society, tales of Indigenous people giving warning to avoid Glastonbury Mountain – a peak at the heart of the triangle area – as it is home to a man-eating stone: a rock that appears as solid and rough as any other, but if you stand on it it will turn gelatinous and swallow you whole. 

So, if I didn’t already respect Torrey Peters’ considerable bad-assery as a motorcyclist and fearless scribe, I am in total awe of her decision to hunker down in this tremendously eerie part of the world. 

Here’s Torrey Peters.

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Michelle Tea: First, I will just start by welcoming you to your magic. So thank you for being on it. 

Torrey Peters: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. It's been. It's been like two years since I've had my tarot read, so I need to know what's going on.

Michelle Tea: Oh my God, and you've had such a busy two years. So wow

Torrey Peters: Yeah, I know. So I'm just navigating in the dark here. You know. 

Michelle Tea: I have to ask, like there's something hanging on your wall behind you, and it looks like the witchiest crazy thing I've ever seen. For those listening who can't see, it looks like there's like a a tree somehow, like a gnarled old spooky tree, somehow growing out of a very modern apartment wall. There seems to be an animal skull inside of it. What is going on with your decor?

Torrey Peters: So I have like I have this like off grid cabin up in Vermont, and then when the snow melted last year, there was just a bear skull like 100 feet from the cabin. No body, just the skull. So I think some other animal must have taken it. But it was like it was like in a place that I had been walking, you know, before the snow was there. I like that grabbed that. And then I was like, I kind of want to put this somewhere, but I want the bear skull to feel at home. So I grabbed there was like this. Yeah, this like gnarled, old, like kind of like the root ball makes like a star, you know? So that's actually like the root ball and then the roots. Yeah, from the root ball that were probably growing over a boulder so they can make their roots kind of grow into a starship because it can go down into the boulder, I just was like these two things will go fine together in my apartment and now the rest of it's like IKEA.

Michelle Tea: I love how reverential you were to the bear skull and wanted to give it like a nice home in the afterlife.

Torrey Peters: You know, was really crazy about this bear skull. And I'll tell you like this since its cover, which was your podcast because I'm not normally that woo, but I'll tell you something about this bear skull. I was sitting here writing like, maybe, maybe three months ago and one of the tooth shot out from the bear skull. It had like split and shot like while I was working and my my science, my science explanation of it is that I think that the humidity was changing. And so there were some sort of like dryness that created pressure and that it just like split over time. But you know, another part of me was like, “What have I brought here? You know, what is what was the energy going on with this?” But yeah, that was that was a spooky thing that the bear  did one time.

Michelle Tea: So you said you're not very woo, but it sounds like you're like a little woo.

Torrey Peters: I've been getting more woo like I been. It's been a little bit Vermont like the woods OK, so these woods are like historically haunted woods there. Like there's they're in what's called the Bennington Triangle, which is an area named after the whatever that Bermuda Triangle, because during the 40s, every single year between October and Christmas, hikers would disappear. And nobody's ever found these hikers for like five or 10 years. And there's like historically it was there's been like you can go back to the 1800s and you can see that there's like the Woodford Monster like and it's a strange place. It's like a pass from like where the Revolutionary Army went through. So it's like one of those weird history with that and also like the indigenous people, they didn't like that area for hunting because apparently the winds were really weird and it was really easy to get lost in those woods. So that and I could go on and on about how weird these woods are. And also there's ghosts. There's ghost towns in the forest because Vermont was, like, really heavily logged. And so there are these logging places, and it got so bare around these villages that they were just basically like, there's no trees nearby and they abandoned the villages and then the whole like. Basically, a huge portion of the state became a state park. And so the trees grew back up around the abandoned villages. And you can go and find like old walls like deep in the forest, and you can find these maples that are like twisted and strange. And and the reason they're called move maples and the reason they're like that is because when they grew, they were they were in open fields. So they're growing in all directions. And then what surrounded them now are like their children growing straight up fighting for the light. But it looks really like creepy because you're like, Why is that one tree like so huge and gnarled and different than any other tree when it's clearly a maple tree.

Michelle Tea: Did you grow up out there? Did you grow up in Vermont?

Torrey Peters: No, no. I'm like an extreme like, this is why I'm like, not that woo. I'm extremely like basic, like Midwestern, like no religion, like, sidewalks and and like manicured bushes like, that's my, you know. So I guess I've been going out to like the woods and I there is the whole point of this is like the woods do have a vibe and I feel like the woods do like in their ways, tell me things like we start we start calling the woods like the numinous forest just because it feels like there's something there's like a presence, you know, and and that is that is actually a huge change. Like, you don't know me from like before, but like somebody being like, you know, 15 years ago, like Torrey's talking about like monsters and numinous forest like nuts, we must have a different we must have the wrong Torrey. 

Michelle Tea: What has the forest told you?

Torrey Peters: So we got this land, it's an old abandoned hunter's cabin. Like, you can't drive to it. You have to like hike and stuff. It’s on it's on like 50 acres and it's like, you can't really build on it. Like it's it's all. It's pretty like rambling and stuff, but. When I first got it, I didn't really understand that like, I didn't understand what this was, and I was like, Oh, like, maybe I'll and I'll build a cute cottage or something, you know, like, I'll have my friends up and I'll be like an upstate thing like all New Yorkers do or whatever. And then the forest is like, Nope, that's not going to happen. Like, you're not doing that. And so like, I would go to like this would be a cute little spa, right? Like, you kind of get in here or something. And there I go back the next day, I'm like the forest of like, like made it like a spring would have showed up like right where I was and it was like, OK, I'm sorry about that. You overheard. You didn't like it. And now you're like, flooded that area that I was looking at, so like. And so basically, it's just like there was this hunter's cabin that’s made of logs. It's like it's my insulator and thing. And the forest is like, yeah this has been here a while. Like, You can keep this, you know, I'm like, you just you just adjust yourself to this log cabin lifestyle. Like, that's what the forest was okay with.

Michelle Tea: So how often do you how much time do you spend in your cabin?

Torrey Peters: I mean, it's it's a real 1880's lifestyle, so it's like it's usually like as long as as long as I can go before, I'm like, I feel disgusting, like I just I just want a hot shower, which is for me, like four to five days, you know? 

Michelle Tea: So you can't have a hot shower in your logger's lifestyle?

Torrey Peter: No, there's no running water. There's no. We put in some solar, so I can like charge computer, so I can write or something. But yeah, no running water, no, no plumbing. We dragged a wood stove into the into the woods, which was an awful process. But so yeah, yeah, they can. I can. I can burn some wood for heat and I can drink from a stream. And then when I get sick of that, which I do get sick of it and like a romance is like good for two days. And then I'm like, usually I'm like, too lazy to leave for another day. And then finally, I'm like, I'm ready for Brooklyn. 

Michelle Tea: So you weren't raised with any, any religion that you had to then recover from a rebel against?

Torrey Peters: No, not really. As like, well, that's kind of like a very basic humanism and like empiricism was was probably the model. I feel like it can make me that when I was growing up has made me like a little bit more buttoned up about certain things, and I've been trying to move beyond beyond that.

Michelle Tea: What has captured your attention or your imagination and in the woo sphere as you move towards it?

Torrey Peters: Well, in my buttoned up way, like as I was writing Detransition Baby, I was like kind of going from a lifestyle change or like I was like, work, you know, get a kind of a gig, make some money for a couple of days and then try to take three days and just like, you know, like take Adderall and just like write as much as I can and whatever. And it sort of works, but it was like it just like was burning me out. While like obviously with like our attention span, being what they are right now, like great have three days and you can use 15 minutes of each day, you know? So I like. This is where the buttoned up part is. Like, I just got a bunch of like, really boring books on productivity like, like not cool rulebooks for like, you know, for like middle managers who are like, “I feel thwarted” or whatever. And so like, I was like, time management, like, how do I do this? So I was reading, I was kind of like boring, extremely secular books about focus, and they were all, you know, like, you got to meditate like you got like you got to, you know, for focusing like meditations like a good. It was like very optimizing, like utilitarian, like “go meditate so you can, like, do better at your corporate job or whatever, like work longer hours.” And I mean, I was trying to apply to writing. So I started meditating, not for like the spiritual aspects of it, but for like I just need to like, correct my attention span. And of course, you spend enough time meditating and like, you know, you kind of get your mind kind of goes to some weird places, that that change happened and then the woods happened. And like, you start meditating in the woods, you start like picking up on vibes and like, 'cause you're just like sitting there trying to like where I see what? What am I paying attention to what's out there and just kind of being open with your focus like wide aperture and and so that like that definitely precipitated like a change in my mind. Like what? What might be in the world and like what might be missing in my ways of seeing the world.

Michelle Tea: That's so cool that there's just this sort of organic woo seepage coming into your world.

Torrey Peter: That what I think is so funny. Like you kind of find it. I just think about the other people who are probably reading these books and like, if they like they meant to, like, have like, you know, like corporate productivity thing. And they've just got like a bunch of acolytes like sitting sitting like by a stream somewhere, like humming to the sound of the universe. And I was like, it was the opposite of what we were trying to do.

Michelle Tea: It just makes me think of all those people that were like, “I had a corporate job and then I left and like, now I'm making wreaths, and just like spending my days now. Like, it's like, like blessing potpourri. And, you know, it's kind of cool that It's backfiring on the man a little bit. I have to ask you, I loved it at the end of Detransition, Baby, the the When Method comes into play and in the play, I don't talk too much about because everyone just needs to read this book. It's so incredible and it’s like a big thing at the end. But have you ever done that? 

Torrey Peters: In the woods, there's a pond and we've gone and it in the winter when it's like iced over. I don't enjoy that at all. But, you know, I have done it, again, I think I like, I'm interested in finding like spiritual, like accidental spirituality and places where you don't expect it. And Wim Hof seems to be like popular was like Gwyneth Paltrow and like random bros and stuff like that. I think it's a really spiritual practice. It's like, I'm going to avoid grief and pain by sort of like freezing myself into like a spiritual numbness to like, find my core or whatever. But it's like it's it's it's such like a macho way to do it. Macho are so like kind of like faux wellness that it's like, I just I find that kind of thing fascinating.

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Michelle Tea: Alright, so I have a tarot deck here. I have like your basic Rider-Wait Smith. I need a break from the Thoth deck I usually read with. Is there anything in particular that you'd like to know about? 

Torrey Peters: I'm like at a kind of crossroads. You know, the novel came out and I always I always wanted, you know, this was like a lot of I was getting the opportunities that I always wanted. But there's a part of me that's like, maybe I should turn them all down and just like, write the next novel, it's like all I ever wanted to do is be able to write novels. And now they're like, “You can, you can write novels. But we also have like, do you want to see what's behind this door”, you know, and it's very tempting to see what's behind, like what is being offered. The real question I think of that would be, do I shun opportunity-ville in order to like should I try at this point in my life to write like the next like novel that takes three or four years to write? do I fight towards a novel? Or do I just kind of go with the flow of opportunities? 

Michelle Tea: OK, all right. That's great. So first thing I'll shuffle to, I'm just going the order that you just said it is. I'm shuffling for fighting towards the novel, whatever that looks like for you. I don't know what inspiration is like for you. I know that like, you know you, so often have to just like, fight through the writing without being inspired. But also it makes sense to want a certain bolt for a new project. But what does it look like if you're just like, “I'm just, you know, I'm going to spend the next few years just hashing out this new novel, and that's what I'm going to do.” I'm a novelist. Everyone is waiting for your follow up. OK, putting those three cards down. Versus going with the flow. What does it look like if you investigate doors, you know, one through whatever with these new opportunities that are coming towards you, it sounds like during a time when you're not quite sure what you want your next novel project to be. 

Torrey Peters: Should I name what's behind the door? There's basically TV opportunities like the like the novel could be a show and like, there's some other like, you know, it's like some glitzy, glitzy Hollywood stuff. 

Michelle Tea: I knew it was glitzy Hollywood calling. I mean, let's let's be real. It's like, Oh, someone wrote a great novel. And now they have these opportunities like, I guess it could be theater, but I figured. All right. Wow. And. Interesting, OK. So for going towards your next book, it's so funny, the very first card is the Devil and I do love I haven't seen because I haven't been working with this deck for a while. I haven't seen this particular devil in a while. He's like the devil in the Thoth deck is just a goat and really cute. And I'm like, Well, look at this dude is like, really gnarly. So, you know, it's really interesting when the devil card comes up, it's usually saying it's suggesting that you're not fully in control of your emotions. Something else is behind the scenes. You're feeling compelled in a certain direction. I mean, and that, you know, so it's making me feel like, do you feel this sense of obligation? Like, I just got to write this next book and it's like, you don't necessarily want to do it, but the pressure is taking the form of the devil a little bit. And then your next card here is the king of cups and which has a resonance with you as a cancer. And and I want to read these two together because the devil is so gnarly, you know, just it's an intense vibe to just pop up like that. But then the next two cards are king of cups and six of swords. So what this is saying to me is that like it may feel a little bit like the devil, like it's what you don't necessarily want to do. I don't know if it's feeling like more of a job than it used to now, you know, because there's expectation that success has brought. But the devil certainly, you know, oversees things like that. The devil is Capricorn and Aries, right? So Capricorn just wants to like, what's next, what's next, what's my next accomplishment? And then? But there's a funny vibe with it, with the devil where you're like, Oh my God, am I even in charge of my own trajectory here? Like, I'm just sort of, you know, so there is that energy. But this is followed by the king of cups and the six of swords. It's like, OK, that might be what gets you into the chair to start this project. But what then takes over is like your natural abilities as an artist, that's the king of cups. I mean, just I'm thinking that there's so much like emotional, like astuteness and wisdom and the way that you like, understand characters so deeply. And I feel like the king of Cups is very much like that. Like, he really understands emotions and his own emotions, others emotions. So to me, it's like, you know, on the one hand, this could be you figuring out what what is the bedeviling part, you know, and kind of coming to some sort of OK terms with it. But I also feel like this could be you sort of in your in your writerly essence. And then the six of swords is about moving away from hardship. So it's like once you make that decision to do it, even if it's a funny, if it's like it feels a little coerced initially, you're like, Oh, OK, you're you're sailing and you're going and it's good. The six of Swords is also mercury in Aquarius, and it's great for writing, and it's it's like a very logical like things fall into place in a logical way. You know, Mercury is the planet of communication and writing, and Aquarius is very visionary and radical. So this is a really this isn't in spite of that devil card casting a little bit of a shadow. It looks really good. Hollywood looks strange. It doesn't look bad. It looks strange. And I almost wonder if you have multiple opportunities if maybe we want to pick specifically on them, because maybe it could be that energies are getting a little tangled. I'll show you what I have here, so the very first one that's coming up for Hollywood is the five of of wands and it's such a funny card. It's, you know, again, I'm so used to reading with the Thoth deck. So in the Thoth deck, it's called strife. And it's it's it's Saturn in Leo. So Leo's just like, I want to be me, you know, and Saturn's like the taskmaster. And it's like, No, you can't be you. You get fall in line. There's shit that needs to happen. And so it's a it's a little bit a bit of a frustrated card. The energy is frustrated. There's a lot of energy, but it doesn't quite know where to go. And also, like if you can see the illustration in this Rider-Waite deck, you know, it's all of these, all of these, you know, yield folks like fighting in these cute little little tunics with big sticks. And, you know, but it looks kind of posed right? It doesn't look like deadly or anything, but there's like some conflict and some friction, and that could just be about like, Oh wow, like what is this world like? Do I really want to go into it? And then it's followed by the two of swords, which in the Rider-Waite deck is a it's very indecisive, you know, I mean, we have this image of this woman, you know, sitting holding these two swords and it's like, and she's blindfolded and you're like, Oh God, the poor, dear. But then you're like, Yeah, but she could just put those swords down and take that blindfold off like nothing. You know, no one is actually she's not tied up. It's it's this vacillation that makes it difficult to move forward. So and then the final one is the seven of discs. And you know, it's a funny. It's a it's a positive card. It's it's really quite quite a lovely card, but it just is funny in this context because, you know, the image is this man and he's leaning on his staff and he's looking sort of adoringly at this, you know, flowering shrub that he's been tending. And he's like, Look at look at all my beautiful things that have come to fruition. This is so great that I've worked so hard and now look what I have to show for it. But so it's a pause. He's sort of pausing to appreciate where he's come from. But so what we have here for you is like a lot, a lot of like like lack of motion, right? So you're just like, I don't know about Hollywood. It seems a little stressful, like, is this really going to happen? There's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. It really make a decision here. Two of swords. I can't do it. And then, you know, seven seven of discs like, Oh wow, look at look at what my work has brought for me. Like, I'm just going to sit here and time out and like, consider all these things. Is it true that there are multiple options?

Torrey Peters: There are multiple projects also, like everything you just said is like what is like the stereotypes of like Hollywood that are being confirmed for me, which is like, you know, like I was like, what I said after I told you, I was like, I could write a book, I could go to Hollywood. I was like, Oh my God, this is the oldest dilemma in the world. 

Michelle Tea: Yeah, I mean, some people get those opportunities, others don't, you know, and it's like some people end up like, you know. Who is it? Scott Fitzgerald. It didn't work out for him very well. And then there's the Michael Chabon who were, you know, I don't know what he's doing.

Torrey Peters: It does seem like like the the the the deck that you just pull, the Fitzgerald case. It's like I'm frustrated I went to Hollywood. I like, I'm proud that I'm here, but oops, I don't know what to do. And I'm just like fighting with people to do not that much, which is like, I think ninety five percent of writers, you know, the Michael Chabon story is, is, is the exception. And I'm like, most writers are like, Oh, I used to go do whatever I wanted. Which even if the devil was there, you know?

Michelle Tea: I don't think that the Hollywood cards were totally Fitzgerald. Like, I think it's like it was, you know, because I was bad. You know, they're not bad. They're just sort of like, it's almost like, you don't trust it. Yeah. And and you can't commit to it, you know? And so you know, well. Yeah, I just got the victory card for you. Just like sometimes I cut the deck when I'm like, We need one. I mean, that's why I'm thinking like, you know, maybe there's different there's, you know, if it if if we're pulling on, you know, Hollywood entirely, then we're just going to maybe get if there's too many different projects with their own sort of potential destinies being represented, we might just not get the sharpest reads,

Torrey Peters: There's a TV show that I'm working on, I'm curious about about that because I just like also it's like the lifestyle, I think is also that the things that I think about like, do I want to? You know, you have to work, you have to work so hard.

Michelle Tea: It's so true. Like, how are you going to run away? Visit your bear skull and the haunted woods, a Vermont when you're. 

Torrey Peters: Totally, I want to just be like, No, no, we're going back to our place. 

Michelle Tea: OK, so what does it look like? It looks stressful. I mean, like, it's so interesting what you're saying about the lifestyle because there is something to that, like the very first card that comes up as a night of cups. And this is a cancer card. So again, it's like, OK. And also, you know, the night of cups is very devotional, and he's like, he wants to be of service. And so in a way, it's like you're being of service to your career and to your work. You know, like, OK, here I am. I'm going to trot, you know, faithfully in the direction of of this opportunity because, you know, I want to do right by myself. I want to do right by my work. And then you have the four of wands, which is an initial celebration. It's like, Oh, this is actually great, like, this is actually happening. It's a thing that is, you know, when we hit a four in the tarot, it's like something has actually stabilized. So this is a real thing that's really happening. It's really got some, you know, it's got it's got legs, but then look where it leaves you with the look, it leaves you–

Torrey Peters: It leaves me crying and a bed alone from the pictures.

Michelle Te: Nine of swords, that classic Rider–Waite. You know, the person's waking, I can't sleep. I just woke up from a nightmare and there's like nine swords behind them in the darkness. And it's it's stress. It's mental stress, right? And it's just sort of like, it's just like fucking like, do I even want this? That project is a cool project that may be like, you know what I mean, like objectively like, yes, but will ultimately bring you happiness? Maybe not. You know, it seems like maybe those things that you know in your gut. And it's really interesting. I noticed this, too. Reading tarot cards like sometimes a reading will come out. It's it's sort of neutral, but the person I'm reading for will be like, Well, that's clearly really bad, so I'm not going to do it. And I'm like, Oh, that's so interesting. Like, it's really showing, I think, how you feel about it, you know, like because I felt like that was a little more neutral than Fitzgerald. And you're like, Well, that's clearly I'm going to just be an alcoholic car crash on the 101. But, you know, it looks a little bit more like there's more ambivalence than that. It looks a little more complicated than that because there definitely are nice things, too that you can reap from it. You know, I mean, the stability of the Writers Guild health insurance, you know, is that is that a four of wands? Probably. But then the reality of like, you know, are you like a feral writer's sort that does need to follow, you know, your your own projects and run off to the woods and do the things that you want to do creatively in this lifetime? Like, that's really serious. So, yeah, oh my gosh picked the victory card for you. Again, this is your card. I mean, I'm wondering, like, is this something that you need to be super involved with? I mean, can people just can you be like here Hollywood people take my novel pay me well. I guess you don't get the health insurance that way, but you can still maybe get credits and get, you know, is there a way to have both the things of both of the worlds where you get the freedom that you want to do your own, create creative work and then you can still. Benefit from your work being in Hollywood.

Torrey Peters: You know, I really like about this is I feel like it's helping me clarify the question. Like, it's like, I actually don't mind working. I like getting the chance to work, whether it's a kind of novel or a or a TV show like, I like telling stories and stuff. But I think the question is like, do I want to be beholden to people other than myself? It's like, really what I'm feeling in this. Do I want freedom to leave whenever I wanna. Again, I don't know the astrology, I'm just looking at the pictures of the stuff they're like. I was like, That looks like a Fitzgerald ending. Is that the picture is like, somebody's crying like they're not with anybody else. They're like by themselves alone in bed at night. And it's just like, I've lost all my I've lost all my friends I’ve lost. Do people care about me? I forgot where I came from. And I'm all alone.

Michelle Tea: It is a dark night of the soul. It is a dark night of the school Hollywood style. Listen, this is I just as you're saying all of this, I'm shuffling more and I'm like, I'm going to do another three cards. Let's get some more information. But look what it gave us. It gave us in the center. This guy again here this is. And this is Hollywood for you on some level, right? Because this is this is one of the cards that came out like, what does it look like for you if you do it? And it's like, you know this, the seven of discs is, is the car I'm talking about. And again, it's this person who's pausing to really appreciate all of the work that he's done, and he's got more a little more work ahead of him, right? But but he's like, OK, this is cool. And then before him, that's in the middle is this queen who I love the nine of Pentacles. She's like him on the next level. Like, he's like, Look, he's got his little farmer outfit on and he's like, leaning on his hoe. He's like, I'm a worker and I've done this work. And then she's like, I've inherited all of this and I employ you. You know, she's just like this amazing, beautiful woman like holding a falcon for no real reason, standing in front of this vineyard. And so it's like, Oh my god, I think there is like, I think you maybe can call more of the shots than you think around this. I think it could be very beneficial because guess what? Your last frickin card is victory. The the sixth of one's just came up. It's the third time I've picked it for you twice just cutting the deck in a way that I thought was random. But I just was doing a whole bunch of shuffling and this came out so. Well, it looks like to me is like that first reading with the five of wands the two of swords and the seven of Pentacles was really illuminating. Like your ambivalence, right? And the things that you're seeing left five of that five of of wands of too many cooks in the kitchen, you know, and like you being frustrated and not in control, not in charge of the work. But that's real, right? But it looks like also it looks like there's really something here for you if you do want to pursue it. Are you writing, may I ask, are you writing a pilot of your of your book?

Torrey Peters: So the book got picked up. Basically, I wrote two episodes and like a plan. And what's happening now is it's going just like a couple more edits here. It’s going, it’s on Amazon. I’m working for Jeff Bezos.

Michelle Tea: I mean, that's really exciting as a fan of your work, I really want to watch that TV show, and it's very exciting to know that some of the episodes were actually written by you. That's really cool. And from everything that I'm seeing in the tarot, like, I would say that it’s gonna get made and you are gonna have to make those decisions. And I would think that you're going to feel really torn about it. I just picked, you know, I when I get my information like this during readings, it's like I'll cut the deck and see. So the first thing I cut the deck and I got the Page of Pentacles and that's you. That's like little Torrey, pages are novices. They're like, I don't know. You know, in the end, the Pentacles is, is the material world. So that is, you know, work money, you know, so here's like, Oh God, it's like, you know, Torrey in Hollywood holding their pentacle and just being like, I don't understand this world, but then the empress is the next card, and the empress is like, Yeah, this is happening for you. This is happening for you. And if you can just trust us, sort of, you know, I think you've got to lean into your burgeoning woo vibes and trust that like this is happening because it's supposed to. And there's a sort of divine guidance at work. And this is like the career you're meant to have. And I think that you can have the book and the TV show. even if you bailed after the first season, you'd have like cash. You'd be getting royalties forever. You'll have opportunities anew. So, you know, you don't need to. You don't, you know, you are the master of your own destiny. You know, look the chariot. I'm like, Is it true? Is she? Yes, you are. You are. You're driving, you're driving the chariot and you know, you're just one person with so much, you know, with dealing with, like all these conflicting, great opportunities, but then your own native desire to be a novelist, which you still are. You're never not going to be a novelist. But I think, you know, at the end of, like so many polls where where I as a tarot reader, I'm sitting with this is like, this actually looks like a great opportunity for you and not as scary, I think as you may fear. Look, ten of us. Happy ending. 

Torrey Peters: I love this! This certainly is very, very gratifying to hear. 

Michelle Tea: Well, let's hang out when you are brought to Los Angeles, as you inevitably will be. I'll come swimming in your Hollywood Hills Airbnb.

Torrey Peters: Can't wait. I'll see you there. 

[Music]

Kristine Mar: Hi! My name is Kristine and I just quit my job! Have you ever thought about quitting your job? Do you want to quit your job right now? Or tomorrow? Or before the Earth heats up another 2 degrees? Well, have I got a spell for you. Just five easy steps to banish bad coworkers, bad paychecks, too much work, not enough work, evil corporations, commutes, the all-too-heavy hand of the free market, small talk in the breakroom, and Sharon in accounting who thinks your hair’s too short and won’t let you forget it.

Step one is: Hate your job. Or even just mildly dislike your job. Who likes their job anyway? If you like your job, write down why on a sheet of paper. Now put the paper in an envelope. Address that envelope to the IRS processing center in Kansas City, Missouri. Now set it on fire. Stop listening to this podcast. You should go back to work if you love it so much.

Step two: Think about quitting for three months at minimum, three years at maximum. Read a little, breathe a little, put a slice of brioche in the toaster. I like mine with butter, fig jam, a pinch of sea salt. Maybe a dollop of creme fraiche if you have it. Open up Indeed in one tab and LinkedIn in another. Close both tabs. Throw your computer in the trash. You don’t need it! Go outside. Imagine a world without emails. Imagine a world where Jeff Bezos liquidates his assets and gives everyone alive right now a $25 itunes gift card.

Step three: Find out your manager is pregnant and going on parental leave. Or, date your coworker and break up with them. Or, find out your company is committing fraud. Or, lead a social media mob to cancel your HR manager online. Lots of options here. In fact, why pick just one? Date your pregnant manager and then cancel them online. Mix and match. Also please let us know how that goes.

Step four: Quit! Send an edible arrangement to your boss that spells out “see you never.” Hire celebrated voice actor Cree Summer to narrate your two-week notice. Build a bear at Build-A-Bear and whisper “I’m outta here” into the heart you stuff into the middle.

Step five: Relax! Chill out! Hang! Pick up a new hobby! Rob a bank! And when people ask you what you do, you’ll just smile serenely and reply, “nothing.” 

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Oh my gosh, Kristine Mar, you are my HERO. As I like to say, ‘Jobs are for quittin’, and in our overwhelmingly productivity-centric culture, it helps to have a comrade, a plan, a magical spell to assist you in the liberation of your time. Thank you so much for this!

Well, this has been a real-grab bag of an episode! We hope that it’s inspired you to fall into a k-hole of unsolved mysteries, to pledge to never again go into the woods or, alternatively, find yourself a little cabin in the midst of a forested ghost-town. Perhaps you’ll take up motorcycle riding, and/or once and for all quit the job that has been crushing your gorgeous spirit for way too long. Whatever you do or don’t do, I personally hope we’ve motivated you to grab Torrey Peter’s incredible novel, Detransition, Baby, and tear through it before the tv version of it shows up on your screens. We’ll see you next week.

Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. You can support us — plus get access to a whole bunch of bonus content — at patreon.com/thisisyourmagic. Every dollar makes our work possible. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic and subscribe to our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com. You can rate us and subscribe right here on Spotify — do what you need to do to never miss an episode. You can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you.

This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Vera Blossom. We got production support from Kirsten Osei-Bonsu. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is by John Kimbrough. 

Thanks for listening!