Roxane Gay: Soul Mates & Heartbreak
Is a soul mate a one-time thing, or can you be a soul-mate slut? Author Roxane Gay talks about the limits of heart connections. Plus, host Michelle Tea pulls cards for a listener with a broken heart.
Roxane Gay: The chart reading certainly provided validation. Like, "OK, it's OK to be who I am as long as I recognize my flaws." That was just very freeing.
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Michelle Tea: This is Your Magic, a Spotify Original from Parcast Studios and your Magic Media.
I’m Michelle Tea. And that was Roxane Gay — like, the Roxane Gay — and today on Your Magic, we’re going to talk to her about soul mates, the limits of tough-love, and if she’ll ever finish a book again.
After that, we’re joined by empath and intuitive healer Janae Archuleta, who offers us something we can use for all our relationships: a spell for peaceful and healthy communication.
And finally, I pick some tarot cards for a listener named Julia who is doing the challenging work of seeing her own part in relationships gone wrong.
Stay with us.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: I could be wrong, I certainly haven’t done a scientific study or anything, but if I were to guess what people who seek psychic services most often want to know about, I would put my money on love. When will love come to them, will their current love stick around, how can they help them stick around, can they bring back a lost love, can they banish a heartbreak?
No matter how enthusiastic and full of promise at the start, most love affairs end right, and they end painfully. I don’t know about you guys, but nothing brings me lower than heartache. And as a person currently occupying the very weird crossroads of mid-divorce and a new relationship, processing grief and delight multiple times a day, I often find myself falling into a love-themed existential crisis: like what is this thing called love? Why do we crave it, gravitate to it, let it fuck up our lives again and again? As a romantic, I’ve often felt romance was the whole point of life on earth. And as a person with a bunch of broken relationships in my wake, I’ve wondered if perhaps avoiding romance was the secret to a more peaceful existence.
That’s hard to do, though, when people are so magic. When their histories and their stories, the ways they move and speak, their tender hearts and wild minds are so captivating. When they are so cute, and so easy to fall in love with. Lately, on my worst days, I fear we just use each other as crutches, as distractions to avoid looking at ourselves. But on my better days I can see how we provoke growth in one another, sometimes through our softness, sometimes through our difficulty. I think today is one of my better days, ‘cause I’m able to see how all of my romances, from the fleeting to the epic, the one that is currently testing me, to the one that is currently inspiring me, all have a hand in shaping my spirit.
Today’s guest, Roxane Gay, has had her spirit shaped by the force of love, and lucky us, she’s going to tell us about it.
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Michelle Tea: Hi, Roxane. Thanks so much for being on the show. You seem like you might be a little bit of a skeptic when it comes to the witchy woo things, which I very much respect. What is your relationship or your feelings towards the mystical?
Roxane Gay: I would say I'm skeptical, but I'm skeptical of all faith-based endeavors. So it's not unique to the mystical. That said, I am more inclined to believe in the mystical and spiritual than I am the religious. And I would never discount the power of the mystical because the universe does indeed work in mysterious ways.
Michelle Tea: Have you felt that in your life? Have you, have you had those kind of mysterious occurrences happen for you?
Roxane Gay: Yes, I have. Certainly, I believe in the concept of soul mates.
Michelle Tea: Uh huh.
Roxane Gay: And when someone comes into your life and it feels like they were fated to come into your life. That encourages me to believe that there is a higher power at work. Not the higher power that we tend to see talked about in formal religious discourse. Yeah, that discourse is not something that resonates with me in any way, shape or form. And so I definitely attribute it to something far higher and far more ethereal.
Michelle Tea: I feel that. I know that you recently had your chart read by Chani Nicholas, And I know you tweeted about how you felt attacked by the accuracy. And I'm so — which is so great. And I'm just very curious about what you learned about yourself.
Roxane Gay: Well, Chani does amazing readings, at least in my experience, and my wife got it for me as a birthday gift last year. It was so interesting to see so many of my personality traits reflected in her reading. And I've always known that I had several like moons in Libra. And to see just how many, I think all but one or two was just interesting and I felt just like, oh, my gosh. Here's someone who is exposing, like the most intimate parts of me through this reading.
Michelle Tea: Wow. I remember the first time I got my chart read. I had such a feeling of relief. Like, it made me just think about all of the ... I guess just the things about myself that I feel like are a problem or I wish were different or that I'm kind of struggling against. And then to have, like, kind of a stranger look at this and just tell you that all of these things are sort of baked into your personality, it sort of felt like a real relief to me, like, oh, I don't have to try to fix myself so much. Like maybe there's a different way to interact with this ... with me, with my own self.
Roxane Gay: Certainly, it just you know, I think that a lot of us who have been told that we're too much or not enough are always looking for validation of some kind and the chart reading certainly provided validation. Like, "OK, it's OK to be who I am as long as I recognize my flaws." That was just very freeing.
Michelle Tea: Yes. Oh, that's so cool. Oh and to have so much of one sign, like to be such a Libra like that, that must have felt very powerful to see all of that.
Roxane Gay: It did. It did. Like I'm a Libra’s Libra. And my mom is a Libra and ... I believe in Libras.
Michelle Tea: I feel like I love the writing that you've done about like happy endings and fairy tales, and even though you've, you know, you've written so much about, like the harsh aspects of life. You're not afraid to go there. It feels like your interest in like harmony and happy endings feels very Libra. And it makes me wonder how you've noticed…
Roxane Gay: Yes.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. How have you noticed your like Libra-ness influencing your work or popping up in it?
Roxane Gay: My Libra-ness primarily shows up in my work in terms of just acknowledging that there are other points of view beyond my own before I argue why I'm right. And I ... And so, yes, I think that's one of the defining features of my work. I have a clear point of view and a clear opinion. But before I get there, I am going to acknowledge people who have different points of view and try to do so in ways that respect where they're coming from and the things that might have shaped that point of view.
Michelle Tea: That is so gracious. That is very Libra, to be thoughtful like that.
Roxane Gay: My sun is in Libra, my moon is in Libra. The things that are not in Libra are in Cancer.
Michelle Tea: Oh wow. Oh God. That's so. You're so tender, Roxane.
Roxane Gay: I know. I’m just a tender little button.
Michelle Tea: There's a lot of tenderness. There's a little lot of tenderness and sensitivity in there, in a chart like that.
Roxane Gay: My wife is a Scorpio and she is very Scorpio.
Michelle Tea: I was going to ask.
Roxane Gay: Oh yeah.
Michelle Tea: Really? All right.
Roxane Gay: Oh yes. And in a good way, I enjoy it.
Michelle Tea: What does that look like? I dig Scorpios. My mom and my sister are Scorpios, and I've always had close Scorpios around me.
Roxane Gay: Yeah, my dad's a Scorpio. And her dad is a Libra and her mom is a Scorpio. So we both have a Libra-Scorpio parenting and we're both Libras and Scorpios.
Michelle Tea: So interesting.
Roxane Gay: She's very intense. She's very passionate. Possessive, but not in a, not in a bad way. But what's hers is hers and bitches better back off. Because we spend so much time together — she sees how racism functions in the world and how she is treated differently in certain situations than me and she is the first person to get in someone's face when I am not receiving the treatment everyone deserves. And it's amazing to watch that and to watch her constantly fight for people who need people to fight for them. Scorpio Energy is, it's great.
Michelle Tea: It's powerful. I love it, I love it. So have you guys have you guys got — had your, had your wedding?
Roxane Gay: No, we, our wedding was supposed to be on Saturday. Last Saturday.
Michelle Tea: Oh, damn.
Roxane Gay: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Tea: Oh my goodness.
Roxane Gay: We're waiting until next year. We have put it off till next October. But we eloped.
Michelle Tea: That is so great. I think eloping is very romantic actually. How did you guys do it?
Roxane Gay: We went to this place called InstantMarriageLA.com. And it's...
Michelle Tea: Super romantic.
Roxane Gay: Very romantic and it was in a studio, an office park in Encino, like the sort of drab little building, and this Russian woman married us under a huppah.
Michelle Tea: Yes.
Roxane Gay: Which was fun. it was really fun and really sweet and very quick and very intimate and we still want to have a celebration with our friends and family. And I've actually never been married before, so I would like to have a wedding.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, party.
Roxane Gay: Yeah. Like, I just think I want to do all the wedding stuff I want, like, my little moment. I want gifts. I want a shower.
Michelle Tea: Oh my god. It's your birthright as a Libra. Especially-
Roxane Gay: I mean, come on.
Michelle Tea: -as someone who is such a Libra. This is your birthright. Yes.
Roxane Gay: Please honor my Libra-ness in this way.
Michelle Tea: You mentioned, right at the beginning when we were talking about, like believing in magic at all and what came up for you was soul mate, which makes so much sense now with all your Libra. And I'm wondering, like, what is like how — what is your concept of a soul mate? Do you think people have like one? Or do you think people have many? Or like what's your what's your musings on that?
Roxane Gay: I think people who say they have, like dozens of soul mates, are being promiscuous with their souls. And that's totally fine that — I am conservative on this point — but I do think you can have more than one soul mate. Absolutely.
Michelle Tea: What do you think is the max that you can have without sort of being too slutty about it?
Roxane Gay: That's a good question. And there's nothing wrong with sluttiness to be clear.
Michelle Tea: Of course. We're not soul slut-shaming any souls.
Roxane Gay: No, we're not. You know, I think three or four seems like a good number over the course of a lifetime. And I don't know that most of us get to that number. But, you know, if someone has fifteen soul mates or 33, like live your truth, I guess. But I — it's hard for me to understand, like, how you could have that deep of a soul connection with that many people and so I suppose ultimately it's a limitation in my capacity to love.
Michelle Tea: Do you feel, does love have a spiritual dimension for you?
Roxane Gay: It does. It absolutely does. You know, the people that I've loved, I've been in many relationships, but I have, I think, been in love very few times. And when I'm in love like, there's just a soul-level connection. That person feels like an integral part of you, like another vital organ. You can live without them in the same way that you can live out with one kidney. But you would not be better off. And so I absolutely believe there's a spiritual dimension to love when you're very lucky.
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Michelle Tea: Well, Roxane, I have this tarot deck here
Roxane Gay: Fantastic.
Michelle Tea: And I'm wondering if there's anything, if you'd like me to pull cards for you on anything.
Roxane Gay: You know, the overriding question I have right now, and I don't know that this is a question tarot can address, but am I going to ever finish a book again?
Michelle Tea: Oh, my gosh.
Roxane Gay: That's the real question.
Michelle Tea: Such a classic writer question.
Roxane Gay: I mean, I'm really struggling and I am ... As much as I love writing, I am struggling to have any sort of consistent momentum with my book writing, probably cause I've taken on too many other projects, but that's my primary question.
Michelle Tea: OK. So I'm going to shuffle right now and I'm going to basically ask what does the energy around this book project look like? So we'll see, if you continue to kind of work on work with it and keep finding, trying to find the time and sticking with it even when it's like feels like frustrating or flat or how it feels when it doesn't feel good. What does that look like? And I'm reading with the deck I normally read with for other people, which is the Alister Crowley deck and he was a tool, but he gave us a good tool. He's a tool who produced a good tool so I like this. You've got the Princess of Cups. She's very lovely. And then you got Gain, Nine of Disks, which is Venus in Virgo. Yes. Venus in Virgo. And you've got the Nine of Wands, which is so good. It's Sun in Sagittarius.
Michelle Tea: So you've got some, you've got some emotional energy, some grounded energy and some inspired energy. You know, this just you just are on your own timeline with this. But it looks very good if you stick with it and it looks like it will open up like this Princess of Cups. She's really good. I think she's actually very good for writing because she is like an airy aspect of water. So, water being the emotions in the tarot and air being the intellect, it's this ability to sort of look. Shoot some air, some analysis, at a feeling, and it crystallizes into a snowflake and then you get to kind of look at it and hold it in your hand. It becomes like an object. So I feel like that in a in a funny way is the process of writing if you're working on anything that has an emotional dimension and you might even look at like, is there an emotional dimension to what you're working on to this book project that might be off-putting in some way where you're like, "Oh, I don't want to have to delve into those feelings.” But with her, she's saying you can. You definitely can.
I like that you've got these two nines in a row, the Gain and the Strength, because it's, I feel like you're going to have some sort of a breakthrough with it and it feels good. I mean, this is a card of inspiration, the Strength card. It's that Sagittarian sort of like off on a tangent, like "I'm riding the horse into the sunset. I don't know where it's going, but it feels so good to be on it." And in the Gain card also speaks a little bit towards material success, which we like you know. I think it's also saying to give yourself whatever resources you need to do it. So if it's a sort of a situation where you're like, actually, I need to go away by myself to some tacky hotel, you know, and sit by a weird pool and just like work on this or something much more fancy, whatever it-whatever it may be. But just giving, giving yourself — something more befitting a Libra. But just giving yourself the resources you might need to get deeper into the zone of it, because it looks like once you can break through that, it's going to just. You're gonna be flying with it.
Roxane Gay: I'm going to think about that. That part, giving myself the resources I need to, to do these projects, that is something I'm going to think of. I mean, I'm going to think about all of it. But that in particular.
Michelle Tea: Good. Good. Yeah. Venus in Virgo, you know, Venus is your ruling planet. And Virgo wants some structure. It wants, and it wants like a purity of vision. So it's interesting to hear that, like, oh, you're also doing all these other things that are taking maybe some time and some focus away from the book. It might be that the book wants that ... it wants to be your number one, you know? It wants it wants all your doting attention and so is there something you can do? At least it's like. Your mistress is acting up and is like feeling neglected. Like, can you whisk her off to the south of France and make her feel really special and then she'll just sort of come alive for you?
Roxane Gay: I think I can do that. I mean, maybe not the south of France, but I can definitely whisk her off somewhere.
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Janae Archuleta: Hello, my name is Janae Archuleta of Moonseed and I'm here to share with you a spell for peaceful and healthy communication between two parties. What you will need for this spell is one light blue seven-day candle and some crystals. Two pieces of angelite, two pieces of amazonite, one piece of black tourmaline, and one piece of clear quartz. You’ll need frankincense essential oil, and mugwort herb, and a fire safe container to burn it in.
Next you’re going to take the candle and the crystals to create a grid. At the center of the grid will be a candle and at the bottom of the grid, you’re going to place the black tourmaline for grounding and protection from negative energy. At the top of the grid, you’re going to place the clear quartz to invite clarity for all parties. And to the left and to the right you’re going to place one piece of angelite and one piece of amazonite so you should have one of each on each side. And we’re using amazonite because it’s the stone of truth. It helps us to have the courage and the strength to speak our truth, to use our authentic voice and to invite others to speak their truth, as well. And to compliment that energy, we’re using angelite because it’s a very soothing vibration. We want open and honest communication, but we also want peaceful communication and compassion.
Once your grid is set in place, you will take the frankincense oil and place several drops at the top of the candle. And next you’re going to take a piece of paper and jot down what your intention is. What is your desired outcome for this spell? And once you’ve written that down, you’ll take your finger and rub the oil around the wick of the candle, reciting your intention, infusing the candle with your intention. And we’re using frankincense for its high vibration to remove negative energy and we’re setting an intention for successful and meaningful communication.
Next you’ll strike your match, light your candle. And then you’re going to light the paper on fire and place it in the fire safe container so it can finish burning. Lastly you’re going to take some dry mugwort and place that in the fire safe container and we’re going to use it as incense in this case. Light it and let it burn. And while it burns, just sit in meditation for a moment. Visualizing your intended outcome, activating your grid. Activating your spell, and surrounding in your heart and mind — surrounding all parties with love and peace. And inviting healing to the situation.
Thank you so much. Again my name is Janae. You can find me on Instagram at @janae.moonseed. I wish you all much success with this spell.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thank you, Janae. A spell like that is so potentially transformative, because, beyond what you might manifest, it gets you thinking about communication. And truly, it does not matter how much love there is in a relationship, shitty communication can totally kill the connection. And that goes for communication with your own self, too. Like, can you be honest with yourself about the part you play in a lousy dynamics?
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Michelle Tea: I recently read cards for someone who was taking a very hard look at her own behavior in some romantic drama.
[SFX]
Julia: There's a person who I connected with about three or four years ago on a dating app. We spent one night together romantically, but mostly just making out. I revealed that I had an STD and they freaked out and left. So I was really hurt by the rejection. And maybe like a year later, I saw them at a bar and they were working and I was very rude to them. And then I went home very intoxicated and I wrote a review that was of a complete lie about them being a bad bartender and treating me poorly and then totally forgot that I had done that. Apparently he almost lost his job. Fast forward to pandemic, and it's the beginning of pandemic, I think about April, and we matched up on a dating app. And I swiped right because I was curious to talk to him again, not really expecting him to swipe right on me but he did.
[SFX]
Michelle Tea: A recent piece of relationship havoc sent Julia into a spiral — but a good spiral, one where she is looking into what types of habits and patterns she has that might be getting in the way of having a healthy relationship. I busted out my tarot cards to give her some support. Because you know tarot isn’t always about telling the future. Sometimes it’s just about talking to a wise and loving friend.
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Michelle Tea: What can we do for you today?
Julia: I just want to fall crazy like madly, deeply in love but like well, I've just had a lot of heartbreak in my life, and recently I've been realizing and learning a lot about attachment theory. It's been really painful to see myself and realize that I am a person with severely, severely anxious attachment.
Michelle Tea: I’m so sorry. I feel that. I've been the anxious attachee in relationships, and I know that particular panicked pain. So I'm sorry that you're struggling with that. Are you in any sort of like talk therapy around this issue right now?
Julia: I am I've been in therapy for a really long time, actually. And, um, I’m turning 40 next month and I’ve been in therapy since I was 14.
Michelle Tea: OK. Well I mean, I think it's great and I think that talk therapy is actually a really, really great mode for working out this kind of stuff and kind of getting to the bottom of attachment issues. How do you think we can use the tarot today to help you out?
Julia: Well, really, I just kind of want to learn, like, what do I need to do for myself to heal and as well as open up my heart so that I can find the right partner. It's been really hard. And I think part of that has been being a writer and usually like I have a pretty devoted writing practice, and that's been a way for me to feel connected to my feelings just through like the art of creation. But it's been it's been hard to participate in that.
Michelle Tea: Well, I'm going to pick some cards for you right now to just get to suss out and get a picture of like what is this? What is the relationship between you and your power? Your creative power sounds like is a big source of your overall power. What does it look like right now? Let’s see if we can get any hints as to what is going on? And there's three cards here. The first one, a three. It's the Three of Disks. It's called Works in this deck. And it is a Capricorn card. Are you a Capricorn?
Julia: My Venus is in Capricorn
Michelle Tea: Me too! Your next card that you got is the Nine of Cups, and it's called Happiness and it is Jupiter in Pisces. And it's a real blessing of a card, a real emotional blessing. And then Adjustment. It's a it's a major arcana card. It's a riff on Justice. It contains those meanings from the original Justice card, but it is a lot about balance. It's a Libra card, which Libra is very relational and it's about balance. Just having a balance, like when this card comes up, you can see there's a figure in the center and it's an iteration of just- of the the idea of justice, you know, as like a female figure. And she's very stylized and she's balancing on the tip of a of a sword. She's holding the sword down the length of her body and her little feet are balancing on the tip. When this card comes up, it's usually because things are a little out of whack and they need to get brought back into balance.
And then this beautiful Happiness card. I love this. Like, remember that you're doing this not to beat yourself up, not because you're a Capricorn Venus workaholic, you know, but you're doing this so that you can have increased pleasure in your life, increased happiness in your life. Trust that. And when you do see little little ways to sort of give yourself a break and do some self care, that's really soothing and pampering in some way, grab it. This is, this does not have to be... I mean, it is hard work, right. But it also can contain some sweet spots and maybe doing that kind of self care where you tend to yourself will allow you to reconnect with your creativity. And there’s the balance, right. And then we have the Adjustment card. That’s the balance. It just, it seems like what you need, you need to balance this very hard, very almost cold work that you're doing. It's like it's like you have to shut off your emotions a little bit because you can't be taking this personally. It's like you're almost looking at your own psyche as a project that needs to be completed or a mystery that needs to be solved where you're digging into it and in your emotions aren't fully present. So you do want to just bring some of your emotions and just be like, I know you're there. I know you're hiding out right now because things are hard. But like, look what I just I just threw you a little party. You know, here's some treats. Here is a pretty walk, like whatever it is that makes you feel emotionally happy, it's Jupiter. You know, Jupiter wants gifts, wants to bring gifts. It responds to gifts.
Julia: I really like about what you said about kind of just like not being cruel to myself basically. Just kind of like, the way I'm seeing it is like sort of like forgiveness
Michele Tea: Yes.
Julia: And like offering gifts, like just because I know I can be really hard on myself
Michelle Tea: it really feels like the key is gentleness, gentleness, gentleness. And so I feel like these cards are supporting you and saying, like, yes, you know, you're on the healing path, you're doing the right things, you know, truth, [00:11:42]just like having to look at the painful truth, having to keep your side of the street clean, having to cop to the things that you've done that you know, you're not proud of. And now you have this additional information you can see more clearly, perhaps like the hows and whys of how you've done it.
And then being in your power, really important, crucial aspect. Because sometimes when we're having to look at all of these like hard truths about ourselves, it's really humbling. And there's a place for that and it's super important. But we don't want to confuse, like being humble with like allowing ourselves to be like, humiliated. Also not, not making excuses for bad behavior or things that were done to you and really allowing everybody to stand in their own power. Right. And have the dignity of learning about our patterns and being able to heal from them and do things differently.
Julia: I feel like there's certain days I, I feel like I'm in my power and it's really evident and I feel really connected to myself and the world spiritually. And then other days it's just like there's this like lack and this absence.
Michelle Tea: What you're doing. Like, if only everybody did this, if only all human beings, like, took a deep dive into their relationship patterns and looked at what their part was like, we'd live in a different world. You're just a little beautiful child of the universe who got banged up like we all did. And the best we can hope for is the courage to actually look at it and bang those dents out so that we can be on the path to our happiest life.
Julia: Thank you so much.
Michelle Tea: You’re welcome.
Julia: I'm going to I'm going to pamper myself after this.
Michelle Tea: Do it! Right after this! Awesome plan.
Julia: Thank you so much for being there. Take care.
Michelle Tea: Listeners, if you’d like me to pick some tarot cards for you, call our top-secret, totally confidential Your Magic tarot hotline! I have a number for you. Are you ready? 201-754-8725. That’s 201-754-8725. Dial it up, share your problems, and I will perhaps draw cards to help you out. This tarot hotline is totally anonymous — we will play your message on the show but we do not have to use your name.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: So — love. It’s mysterious and challenging and it breaks us, and then we come back for more. I myself am one of those slutty soul mate-havers that Roxane was talking about back at the top of the episode. I really am. I think I’ve already had a couple of meant-to-be connections in my life, and I’m looking forward to other. But, yeah, it definitely takes more than just destiny to make a relationship work. The Universe might be a great match-maker, but then it’s on us to do the personal work, like our hotline caller Julia modeled for us, and to take communication as seriously as our spell-caster Janae. We hope we’ve got you thinking about the relationships in your life, and maybe a little inspired to look deeper, and connect better. There’s always room for more magic in all of our bonds.
[Music]
Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @thisisyourmagic, subscribe to us here on Spotify so you never miss an episode. Sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and you’ll get more musings from our team of spiritual seekers. You can email us also at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you.
This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Vera Blossom. Production support came from Veronica Agard, Kristine Mar, and Raven Yamamoto. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. Our original theme music is from John Kimbrough. Join us next week for a conversation with Busy Philipps. Thanks for listening!