Jade Phoenix: The Goddess Within
Sometimes a mushroom trip can delivers transformation in the way you least expect it . Today’s conversation with author Jade Phoenix is the second in a series of episodes about reproduction. Phoenix reflects on how evangelicalism impacted her relationship with queerness, the healing nature of pain, and the psychedelic experience that is parenting. Michelle Tea meditates on how the new moon brought her her baby.
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Michelle Tea: Hello and Welcome to Your Magic! We are in the midst of a special round of episodes featuring interviews with parents, abortion rights activists, and one very special sperm donor - all to celebrate the publication of my latest book, Knocking Myself Up - about how I started to try to get pregnant at age 40 with no partner or health care. Hijinxs abound! Look for it wherever you get your books.
Today I’m talking to poet, performer and mom Jade Phoenix. We’re going to talk about surviving evangelism, queerness, spoken word as bearing witness, and how kids are naturally psychedelic.
And also, also if you want to help support making this podcast check out patreon.com/thisisyourmagic where you can get all sorts of perks - a monthly tarot reading based on your zodiac and the phases of the moon, tarot workshops where we dive deep into a single card - that sort of thing. We make this podcast as a labor of love, and appreciate all of you for supporting us! And if you are looking to front like the witch you are, let Your Magic merch help you - we’ve got incredible new elemental t-shirts, plus a bunch of low-key dad hats. You can peep them at thisisyourmagic.com/shop
Okay, now let’s get on with the show.
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Michelle Tea: Hey everyone, I am writing this, and recording it, right on the new moon. I love a new moon. I think it’s my Sagittarius stellium, I love the energies of beginnings, clean slates, fresh starts, starting anew. I am frequently too lazy to put my energetically skanky crystals outside for a bath in the full moon, but I hardly ever miss a new one. I love setting intentions, making wishes, pulling cards. I have a lot of faith in things growing. If you look around our planet, all you see are people and creatures and things that started out small, a seed or thought or gesture, and now are real, full-bloom, totally happening. Honoring the new moon, and harnessing its vibes, really feels like a true and practical thing to do.
And this is why I had such high hopes when I learned a bit over eight years ago, that my third try at having a baby was going to happen on a new moon. And not just any new moon — the Aquarius new moon. And I’m an Aquarius! But wait, I’m still not done — that particular new moon, on January 30th, 2014, was a SUPER NEW MOON. Being the second new moon in a single month is what made it super. And me, on my third attempt at in-vitro-fertilization — I needed all the new moons I could get. All the fresh starts, times for heightened wish-making and seed-planting.
And that is literally what happened — a freaking seed was planted in my uterus. An egg, fertilized with the sperm of my favorite drag queen. The eggs had been removed from my co-parent’s ovaries and doused with the glittery sperm the same day as San Francisco pride, months earlier. I remember how blessed the wild endeavor felt when I realized this - not only were the egg, sperm and uterus — the real holy trinity! — totally queer, but any baby born from this batch of eggs would have Pride as their conception day. Realizing that my next pregnancy effort was happening on my very own super new-moon gave me that same dazzled feeling as realizing my eventual child’s conception date is gay day. Of course. Of course, of course, of course I would have a baby that began to grow on the day that commemorates the Stonewall uprising, that would make its home on my uterus on the Aquarian new moon.
And so it was! And I think about it whenever I make a wish on the full moon. I’ll dwell on it tonight, writing in my little notebook slash grimoire.. How once I wished on the new moon for a baby, and now he is fast asleep in the room down the hall.
Here’s Jade Phoenix
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Michelle Tea: Jade Phoenix, thank you so much for being a guest on Your Magic.
Jade Phoenix: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m glad to be here and get to talk to you.
Michelle Tea: So, you know, we're we're primarily, if not entirely a like a we're mystical spiritual podcast. So I like to start asking folks like, what was your spiritual life like as a child? Like, were you raised with any kind of like belief or religion? And and how was that for you?
Jade Phoenix: Yeah. Wow. Devin Right. Yeah. But with. Yeah. No, I love it. Yeah. For me, it was actually rooted in evangelicalism.
Michelle Tea: Oh I’m sorry. No wonder you were like, “Woah, okay!”
Jade Phoenix: So, yeah, my father was a pastor of the church I was raised in, but it was like a non-denominational, mostly Filipino church here in the suburbs of L.A.. And I was raised in that. And I would say, you know, that was my spiritual, you know, religious background. I mean this in unpacking all of this, it was like almost like a cult in a sense. It was basically a really fundamentalist like cult in a sense. Right? Like it wasn't connected to any larger like denominations or bigger network of, you know, churches. It was very much the anti-Catholicism, everything else, you know, unless you believe in this like very specific, born-again evangelical like you are, you're wrong. You're going to hell. And so it was very much like that. It's like a fundamentalist, kind of like the most conservative that you can get really.
Michelle Tea: when did you start realizing like, oh, wait a second, this this doesn't feel right?
Jade Phoenix: I was in it for a while. I actually got all the way up to college, you know, playing my part. I was really involved. I was like a youth leader. I was really drinking the juice, so to speak. So I. Yeah, I was thinking that I was going to go all the way and be like, follow in my own father's footsteps and be a part of the church, too. And I would say, like maybe my second year of college or our third year of college is where like I started learning about the world outside of… Even though I still went to a Christian university, it at least broke me out of the very conservative fundamentalism of my religion, of my specific version. And it was like, Oh, here, the Episcopalians here, the Catholics here. And so it was a smaller job. It was like, okay, now here is a little more liberal Christianity. But when I still look at it now, it's still very conservative. But so that I would say college was a little bit of like the egg, the shell started to break open, a little bit of like that insular, like the only worldview I had. It was actually in that school where I met a lot of the Christians that were kind of queer. We were all queer and we found each other there and we're like, I don't know if this is the right place for us. And from there we kind of formed our own community. We did an intentional living community. And so I would say that was when things really started turning, was like, okay, we found people like us that grew up in the same like evangelical trauma, but we're also learning to navigate and get out of it together. And so getting to find a community of people in a like mind of like, oh, we all grew up in this, but we are also like questioning what this all is and having that support group. So after college, we all moved to L.A., to this intentional community, you know, and there was like 12 of us living in a house all kind of like, you know, very like just different kind of backgrounds, but mostly grew up in the evangelical church and our like finding our way out.
Michelle Tea: Wow. And mostly queer.
Jade Phoenix: Yeah. Mixed queer. I wasn't even so like the now that goes back this way intersects with my own story, right? Like, I wasn't even out yet. You can only imagine I'm a trans woman now, but, like, growing up in an evangelical world, obviously is not going to give room for that to grow. And it wasn't even until I got to college that I had met other queer people. And so I didn't know that like trans was even a thing. I didn’t meet anyone. I'd say half of the people I moved in with were all lesbians at the time, and they were like my best friends. And suddenly I was like, I felt at home with like all these lesbian women and was just kind of like, what is this? You know, like, what is going on? Why does this feel like home? And every time I would actually hit on women in public, I was hitting on lesbian women and they're like, I don't think you're my type. I'm like, Yeah, maybe not yet.
Michelle Tea: Right. So I. Yeah, I was thinking that I was going to go all the way and be like, follow in my own father's footsteps and be a part of the church, too. Oh, my God. Wow. So. So, yeah. How does that impact you spiritually today? Like, do you have a spiritual practice? And like what? What does that mean to you?
Jade Phoenix: I think one of the things that like I see, like I got kicked out of my church for was when I started questioning things, my first question was, why is God a man? Right? And I was just kind of like, what? Why does God have to be a man? And it was just like, because he is that and there was no actual answers. And, and so it's just it's really interesting that like in breaking down the gender of God, I started being able to really understand, like being in touch with my own actual gender, right? And the goddess within. And so I made a movement from that. There was a really strategic movement of like, okay, well what about what do we identify as the goddess around here? And as my I started meeting a lot of magical like indigenous people that like, really like we're in touch with the moon cycles, really in touch with the divine feminine. And so I made a really big move that way, right? Because instead of like being grown into like this, God as like a patriarchal man up in the sky, like it was like, no, like God is actually feminine, nurturing here on the earth with us. Things that we can see, that we can interact with, that we can feel in our bodies. And so I made a really hard turn towards like, okay, well, what does it mean to be in touch with the moon and to be in touch with the cycles of the moon? And then then I started doing like new moon ceremonies and, you know, full moon ceremonies. And this was before I even transitioned. And I remember one of my dear friends who introduced me into this practice was having a party that was like only women. And she's like, and again, I said before I even transitioned, she's like, What? You should be there. And like she invited me still and just felt like I should be there, like before I even clocked my own transition, you know? And I remember that being one of the same. And this person also went to the school I went to. Right also was part of the evangelical, but they broke out in this specific way and kind of like showed me. And so that was a big shift in how I feel like this, like shifting of God as man and also in part to like my own gender identity are very similar.
Michelle Tea: What sign are you?
Jade Phoenix: I'm a Scorpio. Yeah. So. Scorpio Rising. Scorpio Sun. Scorpio Moon. What? Venus. Mercury. And. Yeah.
Michelle Tea: Yeah. No. Are you very serious? That's so intense. Oh, my God.
Jade Phoenix: Dead serious. It's the Phoenix is essentially the Phoenix.
Michelle Tea: Hell, yeah. I mean, my gosh, like, you're your mandate that you must, like, transform is like, I'm coming in hard.
Jade Phoenix: I just have no option. It's just like, this is your work is to transform.
Michelle Tea: How did you how did you come into your writing? Like, how did you let that part of yourself in.
Jade Phoenix: It's very much rooted in my trauma. I'm discovering my biggest trauma is like losing my grandfather, who I consider my. My father was the one that raised me. I had, you know, basically my both of my parents were immigrants. They came here, both had to work. So grandparents came. My grandpa was my father, essentially. So I lost him when I was eight. I watched, you know, I was the one that had to call 911 saw him pass. And so that was like the big break with a wound. Right. And that's kind of like the origin story of like the rest of everything that to this point is my life. Growing up in an evangelical home, my parents had no all they can say was like Lolo's in heaven now, right? They weren't able to have any ways of like relating or give me tools. You know, 20 years later, when I start unpacking that trauma in that same group that I was with, I start asking my parents about things. I'm asking my mom, how was I? What happened to me? And she told me that they gave me the tool to write letters to my grandfather as if, you know, like he was there. And she handed me these letters that I wrote when I was nine that I have no recollection of writing. And so reading them, just like this flood of, you know, like, whoa, what is this? And then realizing that, like, writing has always been like a healing tool for me. This is always how, since this was what I was just kind of like given at that moment, I went with it and I think it's kind of stuck with me because, you know, like, I was like 19. I got my heart broken with my, like, high school love and started writing really shitty poetry. And so it's like I started seeing a theme, right? And then I got really into the spoken word scene here in L.A. and that was like the first time I started feeling church in a different way. You know, people talking about their stories from, like, oppressed places, you know, stories or people talking about, you know, their trauma and people, you know, going on stage to, like, speak their truth in a way that maybe they wouldn't have been listened to in other places. And that just really drew me in. And I was like, let me write a poem and let me perform. And what I love about here's how it relates back to me. Growing up in the church, I was very public in my church. So like I told you earlier, I was like a youth leader, right? So I was always up there. I was performing, I was speaking, and that made me really comfortable on stage. That gave me a really good like stage, persona, charisma, learning how to like work a crowd, you know, like I was doing that from like a young age. Granted, it was in the evangelical Christian world when I broke out. Now I'm going on stages, I'm performing pieces, I'm telling my truth, and I'm like, Wow, this isn't very different than what my dad does, you know? Like, he does it in a Christian, religious, you know, like environment. But like, I'm making a living by getting on a stage and like, speaking, you know, and it's just kind of a weird, like, full circle of how I relate to that. Like, I was raised for this in a way, but I flipped it in a way that makes sense to who I am. For me, like speaking it out in people bearing witness like you said, like there is an act of actual healing in that process. And then I found that and continuously find that. And that's why it's like strength in my journey to this day and it's part of my spiritual practice.
Michelle Tea: And it's community healings. I have no doubt that you've had people come up to you after your performances and being like, Oh my God, thank you. Right. Because like you said, something, something about your experience mirrored theirs and they're healed from listening to how Oh, I love it.
Jade Phoenix: And that fits in with what I think my magic is right. Like, I think of my magic power as vulnerability. I think of like losing my grandpa, seeing him die. Like that was an ultimate act of vulnerability on my part to like the way I envision it was like I was like, left out in, like, an ocean of grief, like, with no one to guide me. And I was just, like, stuck in this, like, ocean of grief. And that's, like, so vulnerable for a child to be in that space, right? And for me to find my way back to shore. Like, that's just kind of like, like this being vulnerable. Like, it will hurt, but it will not destroy you, you know? In actuality, it will be your healing. And so what I'm able to do with my poetry is, you know, tell stories that make you feel like you feel my vulnerability. That's why when people cry, when they watch my film or they, you know, they listen to a poem, like, that's my ultimate like I'm doing. My job is like the like that you're able to feel that and it resonates with you enough that it like moves you to tears is something that is really like tells a lot about like the work I'm doing.
Michelle Tea: Yeah, yeah. It's a huge tribute to you to be able to move somebody that that strongly to tears. Yeah, yeah. How did you how did you find your way towards, you know, motherhood? Did you always want to have a child?
Jade Phoenix: I always yeah. I never felt like I did. It wasn't clear to me that I didn't want children. You know, some people are like, I don't want kids, I'm good. And they have that really sense of like understanding about themselves. Then I never had that. I also wasn't actively like seeking to have kids, but I met someone, you know, and like we just kind of like we're at a place where I was like, we're not going to stop it if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And that was just kind of like the attitude I had. Within, you know, like a year of us just like feeling that way. She got pregnant and actually she was conceived on a mushroom trip. We were like children on mushrooms. And that's when we conceived Eliza. And it's so clear in both of our minds, like something different happened when when this happened, this moment, like something happened. And so, you know, two weeks later, she's like, I'm pregnant. I'm like, I know exactly when that happened. Like, there's no doubt in my mind.
Michelle Tea: How old? How old is your daughter?
Jade Phoenix: So she's ten now.
Michelle Tea: Are you going to tell her someday? She was conceived during a mushroom trip?
Jade Phoenix: Yeah, I think we will. I mean, if we haven't already.
Michelle Tea: Well, let's say, like, if she doesn't already know. I don't know what ten year olds. I'm not that old yet, but.
Jade Phoenix: So we kind of think of her as, like, a forever mushroom trip. Like, it just, like, continues on.
Michelle Tea: Kids are psychedelic, right? They are like natural herbal plant based psychedelic.
Jade Phoenix: Yeah. And they come into the world and it's like the ultimate psychedelic.
Michelle Tea: Wow. How. How were you changed by this process? I mean, I know it's a really huge question, and you're we get changed a little bit every day. But I'm thinking, especially at the beginning when there's that when the changes are the most drastic, like, you know, one minute there was no Eliza and then the next minute there's an Eliza and you're a mother. And so it's like, that is such a huge. Yeah. What was that like for you especially? You know, was there a sort of spiritual or mystical, you know, element to it?
Jade Phoenix: Yeah 100%. So we had a homebirth. I got to catch her. She was like, born in the her birth call still. And so, like, that's like another I. She's a magical child.
Michelle Tea:What is that? What is that? That folklore about the birth call. Can you explain this? I know it's always mentioned in books and I just don't know exactly what it is.
Jade Phoenix: So when in the past, what sailors, sailors would get pieces of a birth call because supposedly you couldn't drown. And it's because a child coming out in the call is like in this kind of sense, like invulnerable to drowning. Right. So that's why sailors would always have. And so we actually kept it. And I have my own little, like, piece of hers that's like, you know, like my own little magic, like totem. And, yeah, so that's the folklore behind that. I think it definitely changed in a lot of ways. But what was clear to me in the theme of what we were talking about before this is, you know, like it was just another moment of like the Phoenix rebirth, right? And it was a very clear like, oh, okay. I was fine living my like, you know, kind of reckless. Like I'm the only one that has to pay for the consequences of my choices, this kind of life. And it wasn't like a harmful, reckless. It was just like, okay, whatever I do is like, it's just going to affect me. I'll deal with it. And it was that was kind of the way I, like, went through the world at that young, you know, I was like, I mean, I was 30 when we had her. So in my twenties, I was just kind of like, I don't care about anyone else. Let me do it. And the consequences come. I'll deal with them. This moment was like, Oh, you can't do that anymore. Like, you have a child that's relying on you. So, like, you, you know, whatever you do, there's consequences for your child, too. And that got me, like, really serious about things. It was also in that space where my co-parent and I maybe a year later, we split up and it was just, you know, a lot of different things. But ultimately another moment, right? Like I feel like every time I've had these deep breaks or like trauma, like losing my grandpa, losing my loves, that is an opportunity for me. And this is where like, oh, I burn it all down and then something new has to come. And it was in that space when like, [39.8s] [00:25:36]my co-parent broke up with me in the past. I would have just burned it down and like broken burned the bridge. But this time I couldn't do that because this was like we had a child together and I actually had to go through a healing process instead of just running away from it. And so in healing myself, because I was like, I can't just, like, burn the bridge on this relationship. I've got to find a way to still have this. I was able to find a new part of, you know, what burning things down mean and a new way of what building myself up means. And in that, so in getting to apply, that was when my transition happened literally like I would say like one year after Eliza was born was like the start of my transition that I was like very actively, clearly like, Oh, I am a woman. Here we go, you know? So yeah. And then then that the natural path into motherhood and I was like, Oh, I am also a mother. Like, this makes so much sense.
Michelle Tea: I ended up splitting with my my co-parent as well. And I remember I mean, it wasn't that long ago, but it was a couple of years ago. But at first I was like, oh, my God. Like, my baby's going to be away from me. Half the time. It felt really heartbreaking. But now, two years later, I'm like, “This fucking rules. How do people have their kids with them all the time? Like, what do they do? How do they live?” Like, I don't know how you feel about it.
Jade Phoenix: Yeah, I've been on both sides of it actually. So early on we split, we lived apart and I was living up there like, yeah, I love like having like three and a half. We basically did like half the week, three and a half, and it was just this like really easy transition. And then when the pandemic hit, we moved in together again as like a big family. And a big part of it is like we never I once I was able to do some healing and she was able to do some healing. We ended up becoming like best friends, essentially. There is no, like, animosity between us. We actually consider each other like sister wives, you know, like we are still each other's family. And so we like, moved in together. And so I do have my child with me all the time, but we still do like really clear split. Like, it's not my day to like, have to watch her. And so there can be days where it's like, I barely even see her when I'm at home and I get to just see her in the morning, say hi, and then kind of do our own thing.
Michelle Tea: So you guys are living together now and like that's the plan now?
Jade Phoenix: Yeah. I in for now. I mean, we'll see. It might change again. And we're like, cool with that, you know, like if our needs to change. But for now, this kind of works. You know, part of it is like we, we would love to, like, own a house somewhere and build like our own kind of like the dream is that we could buy some land and then build our own little tiny houses and have some farm like animals and stuff. And, you know, that would be like the big dream. And so we're still very invested in like building together long term because we are family, you know?
Michelle Tea: So that is so incredible. That's really like. It's like. It's like archetypal or something. It's like such a hue. It's really it's really beautiful. What a great story. I love that you guys were able to to do that and come back together in such a profound way.
Jade Phoenix: Yeah yeah. It's so much about like it was because we were mothers, you know, like, this is for our child. Like, it made no sense for us to have a hard relationship because that was going to clearly affect Eliza. And so the best thing we can do for Eliza is for our relationship to be as healthy as possible, that there is no question around it as healthy. If we have a healthy relationship that's going to like that's going to rub off on our own daughter. And so we were just both invested in that, and we both had a lot of learning to do, you know, like she's the white woman that wasn't able to see that she's raising a brown child. And I had to really check her on a lot of things like, look, your daughter is going to be red in the world as like a person of color. And you have to understand, like, the way you saw the world isn't going to be the same for her. And she had to, like, make a lot of changes and learn and take a backseat to learning. And then when I transitioned, she was like, totally there was she was like supportive and was like understanding.And so, yeah, I think that that was just this is the world that we the best type of world we can give to our daughter. And so motherhood became our priority and our relationship had to, like, grow with that.
Michelle Tea: Are there any, like, I don't know, like mother goddess archetypes that speak to you?
Jade Phoenix: Yeah, there's definitely like I, I see a lot of like the old maid. Like I think of like a matriarch. Like, like my grandmother is like my ultimate like. Like, you know, like motherhood. Like my grandma. Right? She was like the matriarch. As we grew older, she had, you know, 18 grandchildren. Like, she got to see, like seven great grandchildren. She was like in my daughter's life for like five years. So yeah, like that is I and she lived to 94, you know, like, and was like, you know, really strong all the way up until like the last two years. It was still like cooking food and still like gardening. And so I love like the old maid, the like in her like, wise years, you know, like just like very like, nurturing and has given her life, you know, like to the people that she loves. And so, like her passing and all the grandchildren telling her stories of her, like her love like exists inside of us like 100%. And then that, like, still moves off into the world. So, you know, I think of myself as like, I don't know if my daughter I'll ever have kids, but like, I think of myself as like the grandma, you know, like the old man, like, just, like, live wise and, you know, like, wise beyond yeah, like, just knows the world and has seen it and just like. And so I love that vision of myself at some point and also, you know, trying to stay young. I'm like just turning 40 this year. So they're still, you know, trying to like but I'm also learning my body is asking a lot of me in a lot of new ways. And so I feel like there actually is a shift happening that I have to be very mindful of because my body's asking me like, you can't just treat it the way you have, you know, up until this point you actually have to change things.
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Michelle Tea: That’s our episode. I hope we’ve inspired you to take the new moon seriously, or, at the very least, to let yourself off the hook for hauling your crystals under the full moon each month. Until next time.
Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. You can support us — plus get access to a whole bunch of bonus content — at patreon.com/thisisyourmagic. Thank you to those who support us — every dollar makes our work possible. You can also support us by buying one of our air, earth, water, or fire sign t-shirts or logo hats! Go to thisisyourmagic.com/shop to see all our merch. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic and subscribe to our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com. Join us on Discord at the link in the show notes. You can rate us and subscribe right here on Spotify — do what you need to do to never miss an episode. You can email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com, we would love to hear from you.
Your Magic is Ben Cooley, me Michelle Tea, Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, Vera Blossom, and our production intern Kirsten Osei-Bonsu. And our original theme music is by John Kimbrough. Thanks for listening!